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KennethKen
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   Posted 1/31/2012 2:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thinking about your "Displacement" vs "Static Displacement" issue, maybe "Displacement should be renamed "Relative Displacement"
 and there could be 2 ratio buttons
  • "Relative to Current Position"
  • "Relative to middle C of the Clef/Transposition"

Static Displacement can be renamed "Non-Relative Displacement" (maybe there's a better word for non-relative). In your description you say that it measures from the staff's top line. However, it looks to be measuring from the center (3rd) line. I.e., When I set the displacement to 0 the rests congregate on/above the 3rd staff line. Is this correct?

Ken

Everytime I see "Move" in the Rests part of this pligin I think it means vertically - even after spending the last hour working with the displacement function. This may be because the Move Rest Plugin that comes with Finale does move things vertically. Can there be a clear distinction? Maybe you would consider the following. Instead of -

Resize
Clear Position
Visibility
Move
Position Style
Beaming
Presence
Displacement
Static Displacement

How about -

Resize
Visibility
Presence
Horizontal Displacement
{replaces "Move"}
Clear Horizontal Displacement {replaces "Clear Position"}
Vertical Position Style
Relative Vertical Displacement
Non-Relative Vertical Displacement
Beaming

This allows me to see what a function is meant to do with having to click on it to see its options first. It also place simpler functions next to each other (e.g., horizontal moving/clearing,  vertical moving/clearing, visibility/presence. I understand that you're trying to have all the other element lists be the same (Note Entries, Noteheads, etc.) but maybe you would consider reordering those as well.

Ken


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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 1/31/2012 7:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think I'll remove the word "Displacement" from the "Static Displacement", to something like "Static Position", "Fixed Position" or similar.

"Displacement" will probably stay. It's used and documented in Finale (in the Edit Frame dialog box).

If I change "Move", I need to change it for note entries as well. I'll try not to rename if consistency is lost. I need to think a bit more about this.


Jari Williamsson

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KennethKen
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   Posted 1/31/2012 7:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
If I change "Move", I need to change it for note entries as well. I'll try not to rename if consistency is lost. I need to think a bit more about this.
I understand. It helps to know/be reminded which direction the "Move" is designed for without having to click on it. The Move Rest plugin is an up-down "move". "Move Horizontally" ?
Ken


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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/1/2012 7:00 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ken, I've taken a bit different approach in v0.12, but still based on you remarks. Let me know how it works.


Jari Williamsson

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/1/2012 7:00 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Beta version 0.12 of JW Change is now available for download. New stuff:
* New option for feathered beaming: "Align Horizontally" that will orientate the feathered beamed group along the horizontal line.
* Cleaned up some feathered beaming code
* "Beams/Clear Position" now also resets the custom adjustments for the primary beam
* "Beams/Move" is now implemented
* A 2+4 layer filter added as well
* "Rests/Displacement" renamed to "Rests/Displace"
* "Rests/Static Displacement" and "Rests/Position Style" renamed. All references to "position" regarding the vertical rest location is now changed to "placement".
* "Rests/Placement Style" changed again. Now 10 options.
* Fixed a bug where the rest placement "Moveable" had to be applied twice to actually be moveable


Jari Williamsson

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/1/2012 12:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I like the new description you have for Displace (v0.12). It's very clear.
 
I'm still not clear on the definition of "Placement" which states that vertical placement of the rests are relative to the staff's top line. So when I type "0" I expect to see the rests move to the staff's top line. But they don't!?shocked
 
I'm beginning to understand the issue of naming these functions since any moving of rests is technically, "displacing" them (another reason why I feel the "Move" title needs more information to it). I understand "Displace", but my understanding of how it differs from "Placement" comes and goes since "Placement" also takes clef and key into account. I think "Displace" is a type of "Tonal Placement" while "Placement" is more of a "Visual Displacement" where clef and key information is retained but only used for positioning when the clef or key is changed...? Is this right?
 
I can do more testing in the next few days.
 
Ken
Sorry I'm focused on rests for now - making cues is my pet peeve (which is why I asked about clef editing).


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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/1/2012 12:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Please permit me to take another shot at convincing you to clarify the "Move" title under the "Rests" heading.:-)

I do understand your desire to keep things consistent with the other headings. However, without stating which direction the "Move" function is meant to handle, that title under "Rests" is not the clearest or most intuitive title to use with Finale because of the follow reasons:

  1. The "Move Rests..." plugin that comes with Finale moves rests vertially not horizontal. When I see Rests/Move in your plugin I automatically think that's for vertical moving - like the other plugin.
  2. I believe Finale generally does a better job at automatically moving rests horizontally out of the way (automatic spacing) - and I would think most users would still first use the Beat Chart to move rests horizontally, especially when working on a score where the rhythms are supposed to line up. Anyone who works on piano music and multipart staves knows how Finale is not as good at moving rests vertically out of the way (since the layer placement options are not dynamic). So, at least for me, moving rests vertically is a more common chore. Therefore, when I see "Rests/Move" I think, "Great! I can move my rest up out of the way with this!" {Click} "Oh, no. I can't."
  3.  Since "moving" and "displacing" are synonyms, the titles must express to the user any basic difference you have programmed into these functions without the user having to click on them first. I would think you'd want to avoid puzzling the user with the titles simply because differentiating adverbs are missing from those verbs.idea

Ken


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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/4/2012 8:36 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ken:
I'll keep "Move" as it is, since that would make it consistent with the rest of the plug-in ("Move" always moves the element in measurement units). For example, noteheads are visually adjusted with "Move" but vertically adjusted with "Transpose". The day Finale will support vertical EVPU adjustments of the rests, the UI of the plug-in would still be consistent.

However, I agree that "Placement" isn't good. I'm thinking about using "Level" instead of "Placement"? What do you think? And "Displace" need to be reworded as well. You're right about the meaning of these functions. I'll rewrite the hint text for Placement/Level/whateveritwillbecalled.

I have a very similar issue regarding Articulations, where I need a difference between the origin location (for example, above/below entry) and position adjustment (EVPU location compared to the original attachment point). I the Articulation definition dialog box, it's IMO just a confusing mess of "Position" and "Positioning".

I aim to find a system that works equally well for all object types.

EDIT: I might actually rename "Move" globally to something else in the next beta. Stay tuned...


Jari Williamsson

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www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

Post Edited (Jari Williamsson) : 2/4/2012 3:40:58 PM (GMT-6)

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/5/2012 2:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

How about this?

Change "Displace" to "Transpose" - It may be weird to think of rests as transposed but since the Displace function is so closely tied to the tonality of a passage I think a user would more easily draw the association between the rests position and the key/clef of this function. It would also make it more consistent with the term used to vertically "move"tongue notes.

Change "Displacement" to "Reposition" since the use of this funtion is to re-position rests that have already be "placed" manually or using a Placement Style.

Ken

PS Since you bring up the mess of the Articulation Definition DBX, I consider your "Rests/Placement Style" equivalent to "the Articulation's Designer's "Position" (ie.., Above Note, etc.) and your "Rests/Placement" equal to the setting "Default Vertical Position" of the Articulation Designer. (The Articulation's Designer's "Positioning" [i.e., Avoid staff lines, etc.] checkboxes I consider to be "Position Options")


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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/5/2012 2:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
EDIT: I might actually rename "Move" globally to something else in the next beta. Stay tuned...
"Space" or "Spacing" ?
 
These words come to mind when I think of moving elements back and forth horizontally.


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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/6/2012 11:50 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
Jari Williamsson said...

EDIT: I might actually rename "Move" globally to something else in the next beta. Stay tuned...
"Space" or "Spacing" ?

These words come to mind when I think of moving elements back and forth horizontally.


What's going to happen in the next beta is that "Move" will be split into "Horizontal Position" and "Vertical Position". That will solve quite a number of problems and limitations with the current "Move" approach. These will be lined up as following:
Horizontal Position (if available for the object type)
Vertical Position (if available for the object type)
Clear Position

"Position" above might be changed to "Adjustment", I've not decided on that yet.

Transpose for rests is a good suggestion. Thanks!


Jari Williamsson

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www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/6/2012 12:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
What's going to happen in the next beta is that "Move" will be split into "Horizontal Position" and "Vertical Position". That will solve quite a number of problems and limitations with the current "Move" approach. These will be lined up as following:
Horizontal Position (if available for the object type)
Vertical Position (if available for the object type)
Clear Position
Very nice. Will the Clear Position option be available separately under the Horizontal and Vertical Positioning functions so that you can keep one direction aligned while resetting the other?
 
Ken


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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/6/2012 2:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
Very nice. Will the Clear Position option be available separately under the Horizontal and Vertical Positioning functions so that you can keep one direction aligned while resetting the other?


Setting the absolute position to 0 would do that.


Jari Williamsson

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www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/6/2012 8:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
KennethKen said...
Very nice. Will the Clear Position option be available separately under the Horizontal and Vertical Positioning functions so that you can keep one direction aligned while resetting the other?

Setting the absolute position to 0 would do that.
So using Clear Position is a shortcut to resetting Horizontal and Vertical Positions to 0 at the same time?


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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/7/2012 4:36 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
So using Clear Position is a shortcut to resetting Horizontal and Vertical Positions to 0 at the same time?


Yes, if both X and Y position adjustments are available for the object type. And for some objects it involves even more than that (for beams for example).


Jari Williamsson

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www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/9/2012 7:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Beta version 0.14 of JW Change is now available for download. New for this beta:
* Articulation resize now resize to the % of the default accidental font size for the document
* Resize of objects now support relative resize
* Bug fix: 8th note beams didn't resize with Beams/Resize
* "Move" has globally been split into "Horizontal Position" and "Vertical Position". It's also consistently grouped with Clear Position. This gives more logic and power to the movement of objects.
* Functions that use popup options now have a title text above the popup.
* "Grace Note" entry filter added
* Durations now appear last in the "composite" entries filter popup (instead of in the middle)
* Speed optimization for all the articulation functions that might create new definitions
* Added the "z tremolo" to the "Tremolo" articulation filter
* Added "Known Music Fonts Only" to "Articulations/Fonts". If the option is checked, only articulations with a known music font name will be swapped.
* "Noteheads/Shape": Added support for "Filled Square" (208) and "Filled Triangle" (209)
* "Articulations/Swap" added


Jari Williamsson

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/10/2012 11:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Jari,

"Placement" still exists under Rests instead of "Vertical Position". Is this intentional? (all the other elements have both horizontal and vertical position.)

The "Relative" checkbox option under "Rest/"Placement" doesn't seem to do anything. When I have rests in two layers (separated using the document/layer options) and try to move them up a couple of spaces relatively to their current position they get superimposed on top of one another (i.e., layer 2 rests get move up more than layer 1 rests).

Ken


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
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Post Edited (KennethKen) : 2/10/2012 9:09:45 PM (GMT-6)

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/10/2012 11:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
Beta version 0.14 of JW Change is now available for download. New for this beta:
* Articulation resize now resize to the % of the default accidental font size for the document
Do you mean "Articulation resize now resize to the % of the default articulation font size for the document"?


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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/10/2012 11:18 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Is there a logic to the order the main elements are listed (i.e., Notes, Noteheads, Rests, Stems, etc.). Most popular elements to be edited first maybe?
With 11 elements already list and hopefully more to come (Ties, Clefs, Chords, Textboxes, Lyrics smilewinkgrin ) it would be helpful simply to do aphabetical order - like the document options DBX. (Although the dropdowns in the Doc/Opt DBX is still a mess - Doc/Opt/Fonts/Noteheads, in particular).

Ken
BTW Why aren't Ties included in this plugin?

 


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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/11/2012 6:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
"Placement" still exists under Rests instead of "Vertical Position". Is this intentional? (all the other elements have both horizontal and vertical position.)


Yes, that's intentional. "Vertical Position" for rests are saved to the day MM adds vertical EVPU adjustments of rests.

But Beams should not have horizontal position, Entries should not have vertical position, and Stems should currently have none, if the plug-in behave correctly.

KennethKen said...
The "Relative" checkbox option under "Rest/"Placement" doesn't seem to do anything.


That's correct. It isn't hooked up in this beta. It'll be in the release notes when the functionality is in place. Probably in the next beta.

KennethKen said...
Do you mean "Articulation resize now resize to the % of the default articulation font size for the document"?


Yes, that's correct. Sorry for the confusion.

KennethKen said...
Is there a logic to the order the main elements are listed (i.e., Notes, Noteheads, Rests, Stems, etc.). Most popular elements to be edited first maybe?
With 11 elements already list and hopefully more to come (Ties, Clefs, Chords, Textboxes, Lyrics smilewinkgrin ) it would be helpful simply to do aphabetical order - like the document options DBX. (Although the dropdowns in the Doc/Opt DBX is still a mess - Doc/Opt/Fonts/Noteheads, in particular).


I have placed them in the way I feel about their importance. Chords edits are already available, but it's at the bottom since that isn't important to me. ;-) Alphabetical order is a good suggestion.

KennethKen said...
BTW Why aren't Ties included in this plugin?


Ties are available in the plug-in, but not yet available in the current betas. I don't feel the functionality of Expressions and Ties are currently mature enough to be tested.


Jari Williamsson

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Post Edited (Jari Williamsson) : 2/11/2012 4:31:55 AM (GMT-6)

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/14/2012 1:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
KennethKen said...
"Placement" still exists under Rests instead of "Vertical Position". Is this intentional? (all the other elements have both horizontal and vertical position.)


Yes, that's intentional. "Vertical Position" for rests are saved to the day MM adds vertical EVPU adjustments of rests.

But Beams should not have horizontal position, Entries should not have vertical position, and Stems should currently have none, if the plug-in behave correctly.
I understand the logic from a developer/programmer's point of view Jari, but I don't think your user base would be thinking that way. Please allow me to try to convince you to change Placement to Vertical Position - at least within the context of rests:
 
  1. A user opening the Change plugin is looking to do something specific. If they want to move rests up/down they could think of a number of titles to look for including "Placement, Vertical Placement, Position, Vertical Position, Move Vertically, Move Up/Down, Transpose, etc." Of course we've already been through thisdevil.  However, if they see "Horizontal Position" under this element or other elements I believe it is nature for a user to then look for "Vertical Position" if he wants to move something...well...vertically. As a user, it would never occur to me that the name would be something else simply because it uses a different unit of measurement!rolleyes  In fact, I wouldn't even remember that vertical rest movement only uses one unit of measurement until after I stumbled on the right title - but by then I've already looked for the logical counterpart to Horizontal Position (Vertical Position), not found it and poked my way through "Placement Style" and "Placement" reading the description of each just to see if I'm using the right thing. Units of measurement is something a user deals with/thinks about when they're about to input the numbers, not when they're trying to trying to find the right command. Your naming convention presupposes an understanding that I don't think users will have.
  2. Vertical Position tells the user with more specificity what the function does, especially since Placement Style is already in use and a user can easily get confused with Placement vs Placement Style (Yes, users should investigate all commands they see and RTFMdevil but my point is that the more intuitive title from the user's perspective is usually the best.). What is more important to the user's ability to find what they need when they open the plugin? - a title that distinguishes the actual function of one command from another or a title that simply distinguishs what unit of measurement a command's unclarified function may or may not use?
  3. Why wait until MM adds vertical EVPU adjustment of rests to use the most natural title? When/if MM does that will you then change the title of the command - which will further confuse people who have gotten used to the old name. If MM ever does add that functionality perhaps you could allow users to change the unit of measurement from within the command's options (ratios or dropdown box) rather than having two separate places (e.g., Rests/Placement for spaces, Rests/Vertical Position for EVPUs) and rather than confusing people by renaming Placement. In fact, you may not even need to add anything.idea Currently, parts of your plugin allow users to switch units of measurement on the fly by typing the letter after the number they input (e.g., With Noteheads/Vertical Position typing 2e will move the notehead up 2 EVPUs, 2i will move it up 2 inches, 2s will move it up 2 spaces, etc.). Why not setup Rests with "Vertical Position" now so that if MM adds that functionality there wouldn't need to be an interface change that the user has to deal with? The fact that a user would go into Rest/Vertical Position now and would only be able to move them by spaces won't bother a user (at least the name wouldn't) - we've been adjusting the vertical position of rests using spaces for a long time and only expect movement by spaces.

Ken

 


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CV186
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   Posted 2/15/2012 9:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari - is there any chance the FILTER under "Note Entries" could include "Cross-Staff Entries".

It would be incredibly useful.


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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/16/2012 12:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Beta version 0.15 of "JW Change" is now available for download. New/changed things:
* Spelling error corrected in description for "Entries/Spacing"
* Bug fix: "Tuplets/Outside Staff" now works correctly (instead of affecting "always flat")
* Changed the internal font references to "Engraver Font Set" instead of "EngraverFontSet"
* "Articulations/Swap" now support Engraver chord brackets (it substitutes a suitable chord bracket size up to an interval of a 12th)
* Bug fix: "Noteheads/Single Pitch" now displays the changed accidentals
* "Noteheads/Single Pitch" now supports both sounding and written pitches
* "Noteheads/AlphaNotes" now supports both sounding and written pitches
* "Articulations/Placement Style" added
* "Tuplets/Avoid Staff" renamed to "Tuplets/Outside Staff"
* "Articulations/Outside Staff" added
* "Articulations/Inside Slurs" added
* "Articulations/Avoid Staff Lines" added
* 3 more MuseGraph fonts supported (for noteheads/accidentals/artics): Stockholm Classic, Stockholm Plate, Paris
* "Rests/Placement" renamed to "Rests/Vertical Level"
* "Relative" option is now hooked up in "Rests/Vertical Level". KNOWN ISSUE: When moving a floating relatively, the first movement will jump strangely (just as when it's moved in Simple Entry). This will be fixed in a later beta.
* Containers are now sorted in alphabetical order


Jari Williamsson

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www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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Jari Williamsson
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Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246
 
   Posted 2/16/2012 1:02 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ken, let me know what you think about the changes to v0.15.

CV186: I'll write it up. This sounds useful indeed. At the moment, perhaps some other filters might work (such as "beam start" or "even number")?


Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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CV186
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Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 358
 
   Posted 2/16/2012 5:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari said...
I'll write it up
Thanks Jari!


2.4GHz MacBookPro7,1 | 4GB RAM | OSX10.7.3 | Finale 2012a | MOTU Traveler1 | GPO4 | GWI

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