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MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Plug-In Development - FORUM HAS MOVED! > New Beta plug-in: JW Change v0.27  Forum Quick Jump
 
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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/16/2012 6:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the new beta Jari! I'll go through more of it this weekend. On a quick look, I think "Vertical Level" is much better and more specific than "Placement" (although it does sounds a bit "odd"). Can the "Clear Position" heading be clearer with requiring me to open the container to see that it's just able to do horizontal clearing. Wouldn't  "Clear Horizontal Position" be clearer from the beginning?
 
Along those same lines where is the analog, "Clear Vertical Level"? I kind of know where it is from our exchanges on this board but the average user may not. I think their first instinct will be like mine was (and still is) - to look in the "Clear Position" container. Of course, but using the word "Level" instead of "Position" you have made a little distinction between the two functions but I don't know if a user will pick that up. For the sake of argument let's say they do recognize the distinction before the go searching. Wouldn't the logical place for a resetting of the vertical level be underneath that container in a container titled "Clear Vertical Level"? I'm not sure anyone will naturally look in the Placement Style container, especially if , by the same argument we just used, using the word "Displacement" in "...+Clear Displacement") draws a distinction from "Level" in "Vertical Level".
 
Furthermore, "Floating (+Clear Displacement) and "Floating" both appear to clear the vertical leveling. So which one does the user apply. Could there be a "Clear Vertical Level" command added under "Vertical Level" that uses the correct one (even if it is a duplicate of one of the "Floating" commands). I think this would make things easier for the user to find and understand. The fact that it clears the vertical leveling by re-floating rests and is the duplicate of "Placement Style/Floating..." can be discloased in its description.
 
Ken
Still like Vertical Position better.tongue


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/16/2012 7:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
Along those same lines where is the analog, "Clear Vertical Level"?


I don't believe there would never be an agreement among users on what's a "cleared" vertical rest really is. For example: in music with just occasional very small sections with multiple layers, I personally believe that the default/cleared state of rests still is at the standard position (not at the layer option vertical position).

I'll probably remove the "Floating (+Clear Displacement)" option once the relative option for level actually works relative to the current visual level.

"Clear Position [Horizontal]" - how's that? I would like the function names to be consistent, but I also agree with your point.


Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/16/2012 9:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
Jari Williamsson said...
"Clear Position [Horizontal]" - how's that? I would like the function names to be consistent, but I also agree with your point.
That's clear. I understand the desire to keep things consistent. Just remember that this can be misleading if the command doesn't do the same thing as it does elsewhere. E.g., "Articulations/Clear Position" clears both horizontal and vertical adjustments (see my next post for some surprising behaviour) whereas "Rests/Clear Position" does not clear both horizontal and vertical adjustments. The two commands don't do the same thing so they shouldn't be titled the same. I think your idea of "Clear Position [Horizontal]" is a good mix of consistency and distinction.
Jari Williamsson said...
KennethKen said...
Along those same lines where is the analog, "Clear Vertical Level"?


I don't believe there would never be an agreement among users on what's a "cleared" vertical rest really is. For example: in music with just occasional very small sections with multiple layers, I personally believe that the default/cleared state of rests still is at the standard position (not at the layer option vertical position).
What about something like "Undo What You Did With The Vertical Level Command"?
 
"Clear Position [Horiztonal]" is like an undo for the "Horizontal Position" command. There should be an easily recognizable one for the  "Vertical Level" command (without the user having to go through Finale's undo list and undoing everything that he did since it was applied).
At the very least, it may be helpful to have in the description for "Vertical Level" a clue to the command that will undo it (e.g., "Applying the Rests/Placement Style/Floating will undo this command".) But if it's not too much work I think having a separate command - like "Clear Position [Horizontal]" - is easlier for the user.
 
Ken
PS I assume putting all these clearing/resetting commands in this plugin within the same container as the command that makes the initial adjustment is out of the question...?
 
 
 


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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/16/2012 9:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
  1. I have a measure with an upstem 1/8  note and a downstem 1/8 note.
  2. The 1st note has a staccato under it and the 2nd has an accent over it.
  3. I run Articulations/Horizontal Position with "50" input in the box. Everything moves to the right as expected.
  4. I run Articulations/Vertical Position with "50" input in the box. The staccato moves down and the accent moves up. I suppose this makes sense as the number increases the distance the articulation is away from the notehead (of course a large negative number would do the same in the opposite direction). However, you may want to clarify the movement in this command's description. Someone could easily think that inputting "50" should move everything in one direction - up 50EVPUs - and -50 would move everything down.
  5. I run Articulations/Clear Position. The articulations don't go back to their "original" positions - the positions they were in before I moved them with the other commands.freaked It appears that this command is equivalent to setting the vertical and horizontal positions to "0" which is, apparently, different from their defaults. This is not intuitive and it looks like a bug. To get them back to their default position I have to select the articulations and hit the BACKSPACE key. I would expect the "Clear Position" command to be equivalent to hitting the BACKSPACE key (i.e., removing manual or plugin enacted positioning). "Clear Position" certainly doesn't "Reset manual positioning of the articulation" as its description says - it actual "sets" it to 0. (The "re" implies a return to a previous setting.)

Ken


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

Post Edited (KennethKen) : 2/16/2012 8:05:53 PM (GMT-6)

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/16/2012 11:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I don't know how easy it is to add fonts to the font lists in the plugin (e.g., noteheads/fonts, articulations/fonts, etc.) but here are a few that I've found useful over the years.

MetTimes, MetHelvetica (not show but by the same vendor), Metronome, DVMarticulations, Kidnotes

CrescendoFLF, GraceNotesFLF

Ken
PS Why are MaestroWide, EngraverFontExtr, Maestro Percussion in the lists?



Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

Post Edited (KennethKen) : 2/16/2012 9:14:02 PM (GMT-6)

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/17/2012 6:28 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
What about something like "Undo What You Did With The Vertical Level Command"?


A bit too short name. ;-) In this case, I think it's better that the user creates a (one-step) Sequence with the wanted reset functionality.

Yes, the "Articulations/Clear Position" is currently buggy! Some of it is my fault, some of it is a problem with the PDK layer.

I could absolutely add more fonts that make sense to include to the object type, and for most notation element types I would mainly like to focus on fonts that are "slot compatible" with Petrucci/Maestro/Jazz/etc. Isn't MetTimes mosty an expression/text font? Is Kidnotes of any real use now that AlphaNotes is included in Finale?


Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/17/2012 8:24 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
KennethKen said...
What about something like "Undo What You Did With The Vertical Level Command"?


 In this case, I think it's better that the user creates a (one-step) Sequence with the wanted reset functionality.
I was afraid you were going to say that.sad So if I want to reset a bunch of different articulations to their defaults I'll have to write a sequence that includes each articulation with its original vertical and horizontal setting. Since Finale ships with various articulations having different default vertical and handle positions this would be a rather tedious sequence to create (even worst if someone has changed the defaults for their file - you couldn't reuse the sequences you had already made for the "out-of-the-box" settings.
 
I think people will be surprised that the BACKSPACE keystroke actually provides quicker functionality than a Williamsson plugin!:p  Of course, if they were hoping to use the filters in your plugin to speed selection of the articulations then they'll have to do the math to see what takes longer - lasso-ing all the particular articulations that they want and hitting BACKSPACE vs writing a sequence for accents, staccatos, etc.
 
Is there a symbol or number that can be typed in the plugin that means "reset to whatever this element's default is" so that we wouldn't have to put specific numbers in for the different articulation sequence(s)?
 
Ken
I still think people will be surprised to see their articulations move when they apply "Clear Position". "Clear" usually means "back to factory settings" which in Finale's case is usually not "0". A common application would be if a person manually moved (or received a file with moved) articulations and wanted to reset a bunch of them in a selected area. There may be some that are already in their default position and some that have been manually moved. A user sees "Clear Position" and thinks they can just use that to put everything back to the default only to fine out this is not the case. Something like "Set to 0" is not as elegant as "Clear Position" but much clearer, more predictable and the results less confusing (and possibly more practical).


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/17/2012 8:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
I could absolutely add more fonts that make sense to include to the object type, and for most notation element types I would mainly like to focus on fonts that are "slot compatible" with Petrucci/Maestro/Jazz/etc. Isn't MetTimes mosty an expression/text font? Is Kidnotes of any real use now that AlphaNotes is included in Finale?
You're right, it's probably not worth the trouble for MetTimes. There may be people with older files that use KidNotes though. There's also a great font for baroque ornaments - I'll try to locate it.
 
Ken


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Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/17/2012 2:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
I was afraid you were going to say that. sad


Just to avoid confusion: what I quoted and replied to was related to the opposite of setting the vertical level of rests. Not articulations.


Jari Williamsson

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www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/17/2012 6:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
KennethKen said...
I was afraid you were going to say that. sad

Just to avoid confusion: what I quoted and replied to was related to the opposite of setting the vertical level of rests. Not articulations.
Great! So "Articulations/Clear Position" will eventually reset articulations back to their defaults?


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Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/17/2012 6:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I'm getting some surprising behaviour with Rests/Beaming where Beam to Previous breaks some beams and Break Beam After Entry actually extends some beams. Is there some functionality that hasn't been hooked up yet that I should know about or would you like me to send specifics now?

Ken
My Doc Opts are Extend Beam Over Rests and Extend Secondary Beam Over Rests are both checked.

 


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Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/17/2012 6:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

When Display half-stem for beamed rests is check in Doc Opts. the only way to hide a select group of these half stems is to assign a blank custom stem to them (at least that's the only way I can think of right now). Do you think it would be worth it to add a function for this under Stems or Rests (e.g., "Visibility [half-stems]"). Currently, the "Stems Visibility" command doesn't work on half-stem rests.

Ken
I don't think I'd have much use for this but I'm just playing around with the plugin now and some else may find half-stems on some rest more readable in some cases but not in others - in which case this plugin with its filters may be very helpful.


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/17/2012 7:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Would you consider adding "Fermatas" to the Articulations filter in the Articulations container?
Ken


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 2/18/2012 6:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
Great! So "Articulations/Clear Position" will eventually reset articulations back to their defaults?


That's the plan. It should at least get much better than it is today. Getting it fully correct (for horizontally auto-centered items) might involve an update of Finale.

KennethKen said...
I'm getting some surprising behaviour with Rests/Beaming where Beam to Previous breaks some beams and Break Beam After Entry actually extends some beams. Is there some functionality that hasn't been hooked up yet that I should know about or would you like me to send specifics now?

Ken
My Doc Opts are Extend Beam Over Rests and Extend Secondary Beam Over Rests are both checked.


Please send a bug file and steps for this one. This function should work.

KennethKen said...
When Display half-stem for beamed rests is check in Doc Opts. the only way to hide a select group of these half stems is to assign a blank custom stem to them (at least that's the only way I can think of right now). Do you think it would be worth it to add a function for this under Stems or Rests (e.g., "Visibility [half-stems]"). Currently, the "Stems Visibility" command doesn't work on half-stem rests.


I'll add the functionality to "Stems/Visibility", and add a filter for rest half stems.

KennethKen said...
Would you consider adding "Fermatas" to the Articulations filter in the Articulations container?


I'll add that!


Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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KennethKen
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   Posted 2/18/2012 9:04 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
KennethKen said...
I'm getting some surprising behaviour with Rests/Beaming where Beam to Previous breaks some beams and Break Beam After Entry actually extends some beams. Is there some functionality that hasn't been hooked up yet that I should know about or would you like me to send specifics now?

Ken
My Doc Opts are Extend Beam Over Rests and Extend Secondary Beam Over Rests are both checked.
Please send a bug file and steps for this one. This function should work.
Here's a mus file (Finale 2012a, Windows). The Doc Opts were set to Extend Beam Over Rests and Extend Secondary Beam Over Rests after the notes were inputted and that the beaming in measure 3 has been manually altered (using Speedy Entry "/").
  1. Select all of the music with the selection tool.
  2. open JWChange/Rests/Beaming and select "Break Beam After Entry" as the beaming mode. (I'm not even sure what this is supposed to do. I think it's meant to break the beam on an entry [note or rest] that appears after a rest [since we're in the Rests container]...? Can you clarify?).
  3. Click Apply and see that the beam in m.3 has extended itself rather than being broken in any way. (Same thing happens with "Break Beam Before Entry" as the beaming mode.)
Undo the last command with Finale's undo feature to get the file back to its original state.
  1. Select all of the music with the selection tool.
  2. open JWChange/Rests/Beaming and select "Beam to Previous" as the beaming mode. (I think this is suppose to beam any 1/8 or shorter rests to any 1/8 or shorter note that preceeds it).
  3. Click Apply and see that the beams in m.1 and m.3 have been broken!


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.



File Attachment :
tmp3a.mus   41KB (application/octet-stream)
This file has been downloaded 260 time(s).
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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 3/5/2012 12:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Beta version 0.16 of JW Change is now available for download. Lots of internal restructure in this version, so if something seems to be broken that worked in previous versions, please let me know! Of course, if anything doesn't work that is supposed to work, let me know... :-)

Here are the new things in this version:
* "Rest/Beaming" should now work correctly according to the 4 available options
* "Freeze" option added to beaming of entries and rests
* Clarified options names for "Rests/Beaming"
* "Cross Staff" Entry filter added
* "Cross Staff" Notehead filter added
* Separate "Fermata" articulation filter added (fermatas are also part of the "Phrasing" filter)
* Added support for "Maestro Wide" in font selections
* Complete redesign of Tuplet filters
* Augmentation Dot adjustments now works on rests as well
* Augmentation Dot filter now includes a "rest" option


Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

Post Edited (Jari Williamsson) : 3/5/2012 1:45:25 PM (GMT-6)

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KennethKen
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   Posted 3/20/2012 9:24 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Would you consider adding "Trills" to the Articulations filter in the Articulations container? I have a bunch of articulation "tr" that appear above downstem notes that already have articulations on them (tenutos and accents). It would be great to be able to move all the "tr" symbols higher for those measures at once.

Ken


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 3/20/2012 5:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
Would you consider adding "Trills" to the Articulations filter in the Articulations container? I have a bunch of articulation "tr" that appear above downstem notes that already have articulations on them (tenutos and accents). It would be great to be able to move all the "tr" symbols higher for those measures at once.


The trill articulations can be filtered with the "ornaments" filter. Do you need a different filter only for trills? However, please note that trills built on shapes (trill with b and #) aren't yet supported in v0.16. These will be supported in the ornaments filter in a later beta.


Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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KennethKen
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   Posted 3/20/2012 6:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Of course. Your right.

BTW Are you going to consolidate some of your plugins into the JW Change plugin. e.g. JW conceal/reveal rests can be handled by JW Change/Rest/Presence, maybe JW Hide Articulations and JW Space Empty Rests can also be moved into the JW Change plugin. Just trying to make the submenu where I keep all you stuff smaller and hopefully have a single place to go (and one modeless window) to do things most things.

Ken


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 3/21/2012 4:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
BTW Are you going to consolidate some of your plugins into the JW Change plugin. e.g. JW conceal/reveal rests can be handled by JW Change/Rest/Presence, maybe JW Hide Articulations and JW Space Empty Rests can also be moved into the JW Change plugin. Just trying to make the submenu where I keep all you stuff smaller and hopefully have a single place to go (and one modeless window) to do things most things.


Absolutely. A couple of my previous plug-ins will move to the "Obsolete plug-ins" area once there is a 1.00 version of JW Change. JW Space Empty Rests goes outside the scope of JW Change, but the functionality of JW Hide Artics and JW Conceal/Reveal rests are currently duplicated in JW Change.


Jari Williamsson

Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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michelp
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   Posted 3/21/2012 10:18 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello Jari,

The plug-in allows the horizontal position of note entries to be modified.
But the frequent request for an occasional centered whole note is hard to achieve there. Would you consider to add an option "center in measure" if the thing is doable ?
Unless you have a better idea on how to achieve this purpose.
A word of explanation of the effect of the Relative checkbox would also be welcome.
Thanks again.


Michel
Finale 2012a, 2011c, 2010b, 2009b, MacOsX 10.7.3 (Lion), Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 8 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. Midi interface : MOTU Midi Express XT. Roland Sound Canvas SC88-vl.

Post Edited (michelp) : 3/21/2012 9:21:49 AM (GMT-5)

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KennethKen
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   Posted 3/22/2012 3:41 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari,

I've gotten accustom to the TGTools plugins' "Collapse When Inactive" & "After Go: Close / Inactive" options. Given the modeless nature of your plugins and their usefulness when editing it makes more sense to keep the plugins open while working. However, one can quickly find that they obscure the score, especially JW Change which benefits from having a slightly larger window but may need to alternate focus with the main Finale window. Is there any way you could add an option to make the plugins smaller when they don't have focus or is that stealing Tobias's thunder (minimizing has been around since the early days on windows but I didn't know if there was some sort of plugin developers code of honor).

Ken


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Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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CV186
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Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 358
 
   Posted 3/23/2012 1:20 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On the Macintosh side, the global key shortcut cmd-backtick cycles between open windows. This luckily INCLUDES the windows of Jari's plug-ins, which politely get out of the way until needed again.


2.4GHz MacBookPro7,1 | 4GB RAM | OSX10.7.3 | Finale 2012a | MOTU Traveler1 | GPO4 | GWI

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KennethKen
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Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 2570
 
   Posted 3/23/2012 8:37 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On Windows ALT-TAB cycles through open applications instead of open windows within an application so you may have to cycle through all your open apps before getting back to Finale (and the plugin is still maximized). Also, I usually have multiple plugins open at the same time while editing. If Windows had the equivalent to "cmd-backtick" wouldn't I have to keep track of how many times I hit the keystroke (depending on how many plugins are open at any given time) to not overshoot the main Finale window? A more intuitive and automatic way of minimizing the plugins would be great.

Ken


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 [email protected], 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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CV186
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Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to CV186AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 358
 
   Posted 3/27/2012 4:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On Mac the "escape" key (equivalent to hitting "Cancel") immediately dismisses plug-in windows. I invoke my favourite plug-ins with systemic keyboard shortcuts, and they pop back onto screen instantaneously.


2.4GHz MacBookPro7,1 | 4GB RAM | OSX10.7.3 | Finale 2012a | MOTU Traveler1 | GPO4 | GWI

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