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Mike Rosen
himself
      
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 6722
| Posted 10/26/2009 8:54 AM (GMT -5) |   | It gets worse. Suppose sopranos are singing L 1, and altos are on L 2. If there is no accidental on the alto's E, they should sing it as the flat, as the key sig indicates. If you want them to sing an E natural, it should be shown.
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
WebMaster for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
NEW SITE www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm
Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker." | | Back to Top | |
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Jim Coull
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 2686
| Posted 10/26/2009 9:25 AM (GMT -5) | | "Altos would not (or should not) sing the second E as a flat."
Think the emphasis should be on the "should not" not the "would not" because I suspect that in most cases, the altos (or 2nd horn, trumpet, clarinet or what ever is performing the 2nd layer) probably missed the natural in the 1st layer.
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Saffron
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2687
| Posted 10/26/2009 10:06 AM (GMT -5) | |
Andy Platt said...
Wiggy said...
4. Fix all the long outstanding bugs. I want this more than any new feature and I will pay for it.
Funny how every user wants this but no developer ever does. Not hard to see why - it's very difficult for marketing to produce a great "why you need to upgrade document" when all the time has been spent fixing bugs.
But us users are to blame ;) - if we refuse to upgrade until it has the bug fixes and not just new great features, they will fix the bugs!
Andy.
Speak for yourself, Andy: I have always prefered, "fewer features that work" to "loads of features with bugs everywhere" - and so have refused to upgrade. No dice - MakeMusic didn't change their development model!
I'm the kinda guy who wants the software equivalent of a solid copper Mauviel saute pan, a decent Sabatier knife and a wooden chopping board, rather than a Telfon-plus, auto-venting miracle cook's pan, with built-in thermometer, Pizza'n'Burger EZ modes and an FM radio, together with a Blade-o-matic multi-knife with integral sharpner, vibrating carve mode and safety guard, which breaks the first time I apply it to my red/green/blue PolyParrot autochange meat/veg/fish ChopSafe anti-Listeria rotoboard.
And that's what I want from MakeMusic, if you see what I mean! 
Brian
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Mike Rosen
himself
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 6722
| Posted 10/26/2009 2:38 PM (GMT -5) | | johnmouse said...
Looking at m.1, it is clear that the first E is natural, the 2nd is flat. In m.2 both E's are natural. Altos would not (or should not) sing the second E as a flat. The natural cancels out that particular E-flat on for the entire measure unless another accidental on E is used. There is no need for another natural sign, unless one wishes to use a courtesy accidental. If the altos are supposed to sing an E-flat, then a flat is absolutely needed in this case.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. In my Essential Dictionary of music Notation, it says:
Parts on the same staff that are played by more than one instrument (including vocal parts) are treated individually. Repeat accidentals in the same measure if the voices cross.
The illustration that follows notes that two instruments sharing a staff—the accidentals are considered separately and courtesy accidental avoids confusion
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
WebMaster for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
NEW SITE www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm
Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker." | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 1014
| Posted 10/26/2009 2:45 PM (GMT -5) | | I agree with Mike... the only place I can think of where an accidental would not need to be notated in another line on the same staff, is in keyboard music (or a part essentially for a single player). If the example posted earlier in the thread were a "Horn I/Horn II" part, the second hornist should not be forced to read the first hornist's part as well as his own. Neither should the Altos have to really pay attention to what the Sopranos are doing (because, really, paying attention to Sopranos is the root cause of many issues </tongue-cheek>)
This is just another reason I dislike shared staves; confusion over these types of issues.
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b using Speedy Entry, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs
"It is the job of copyist/arranger/composer to not only make the music clear and readable, but to also make it impossible to play incorrectly." - paraphrased from Bill Duncan
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 1014
| Posted 10/26/2009 3:11 PM (GMT -5) | | Using Wiggy's excellent example, here is the list of errors:
m.1 : doubled F-natural - only 1 natural sign should be displayed in the score - in the parts, both need to be displayed (1 in each of the separate parts)
m2. :
1. doubled G-sharp - only 1 sharp sign should be displayed in the score - in the parts, both need to be displayed (1 in each of the separate parts)
2. in the score, a sharp sign is required on the G on beat 4. In the parts, the upper part would not have the G-sharp on beat 4 displayed.
Perhaps the reason this issue refuses to die is that it's too complex to easily code? Although you can alter the linked parts so it displays correctly now, perhaps it's too complicated to do automatically?
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b using Speedy Entry, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs
"It is the job of copyist/arranger/composer to not only make the music clear and readable, but to also make it impossible to play incorrectly." - paraphrased from Bill Duncan
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Mike Rosen
himself
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 6722
| Posted 10/26/2009 3:14 PM (GMT -5) | | Wiggy said...
Whatever the theory, (and I accept that a piano stave may be a different case from two parts on the same line), Finale does not handle it properly.
See the attached.
Which is just what many of us have said. There should be a way to tell Finale whether it should be keyboard or divisi style, and it should be handled properly and appropriately. If accidentals are doubled, as in your example, they should overlap, so they will show in parts.
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
WebMaster for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
NEW SITE www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm
Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker." | | Back to Top | |
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johnmouse
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 632
| Posted 10/26/2009 5:13 PM (GMT -5) | | Mike Rosen said...
Sorry, but I have to disagree. In my Essential Dictionary of music Notation, it says:
Parts on the same staff that are played by more than one instrument (including vocal parts) are treated individually. Repeat accidentals in the same measure if the voices cross.
The illustration that follows notes that two instruments sharing a staff—the accidentals are considered separately and courtesy accidental avoids confusion
I'm still going to have to disagree. Take the hymn "I Want a Principle Within," for example. In the 11th measure, the soprano has a G#. On the 6th beat, the alto must sing that very same note. By the way you're describing, the alto must sing a G natural (since there is no sharp on that particular beat) instead of a G#, which would be incorrect. It is, indeed, a G#.
John
Finale 2009c/2010
M-Audio KeyRig 49
Windows XP, SP2
P4 2.8 GHz
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Mike Rosen
himself
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 6722
| Posted 10/26/2009 5:44 PM (GMT -5) | | johnmouse said...Mike Rosen said...
Sorry, but I have to disagree. In my Essential Dictionary of music Notation, it says:
Parts on the same staff that are played by more than one instrument (including vocal parts) are treated individually. Repeat accidentals in the same measure if the voices cross.
The illustration that follows notes that two instruments sharing a staff—the accidentals are considered separately and courtesy accidental avoids confusion I'm still going to have to disagree. Take the hymn "I Want a Principle Within," for example. In the 11th measure, the soprano has a G#. On the 6th beat, the alto must sing that very same note. By the way you're describing, the alto must sing a G natural (since there is no sharp on that particular beat) instead of a G#, which would be incorrect. It is, indeed, a G#.
Then it is, according to my sources, notated incorrectly. If they were written on two staves, the altos would get the #. And so, on one staff, they should still get it. If you were reading a piano reduction, then it would be notated as you describe.
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
WebMaster for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
NEW SITE www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm
Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker." | | Back to Top | |
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