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warrenbarnett
Registered Member
      
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 371
| Posted 10/30/2009 9:09 PM (GMT -5) |   |
David Young : chambermusic said...
In my recent (September) letter to MakeMusic I strongly suggested that they move the engraver slur routine to a higher level to create appropriate, engraver standard slurs for a wide range of note placements. I hope that they can find a way to do this. Most slurs look quite nice, but there are a number of situations where the appropriate slur is different than what is automatically drawn.
I have borrowed many orchestral scores from the library, and entered them into Finale. I have been astounded at how accurately Finale automatically portrays slurs in comparison to the original printed works. I have examined them in great detail and found them to be almost 100% identical to everything that I have seen from published works, not only condensed scores, but also complete scores. Obviously there will be exeptions, but I think that the default Finale settings are absolutely incredible, when compared to published works dating back to the 1930s right up to current publications. Only occasionally has Finale decided to put the slur on the opposite side of the staff, but after changing to the other side, the comparison is once again bang-on.
Warren Barnett
Finale 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010
Garritan Personal Orchestra
Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0,
Jazz & Big Band
Concert & Marching Band
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Mirokado
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 10/31/2009 9:20 AM (GMT -5) | | | BIAB rhythm section generator on Mac version. | | Back to Top | |
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SF
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 1154
| Posted 10/31/2009 11:47 AM (GMT -5) | | Vaughan,
It would be a lot less hassle if you just created the clef with the clef designer. Document Options>Clefs click on "Clef Designer" (bottom right corner of db). Choose "Shape" and create whatever clef you need then save it out as a library so it's always accessible. Do it once and you will never have to think about it ever again and you will not have to worry about the parens being deleted or copied or moved.
Cheers,
SF | | Back to Top | |
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Ron.
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 3815
| Posted 10/31/2009 3:16 PM (GMT -5) | |
Vaughan said...Does anyone have the need for a treble clef with the 8 underneath between parentheses? I often have to notate lines in treble clef which could be but aren't necessarily for tenors and the composers insist on the 8 in parentheses, necessitating a measure-attached expression at the beginning of every line. Or am I the only one who needs this? I know, I've thought of replacing one of the glyphs in the Engraver Font using a font editor but it'd be a lot less hassle if I didn't have to.
Why parentheses? Either the clef is a straight G clef, or it is an 8ve clef. Generally speaking, I am against unnecessary clutter in a score--and putting parentheses around the 8 in this situation is meaningless.
Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com
Finale 2010 with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0,
Jazz & Big Band, and Concert & Marching Band
TGTools Pro
Win XP/Pro, Intel Core 2 Quad, 4 GB RAM
Creative XFi Xtreme Music sound card
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QcCowboy
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 2902
| Posted 10/31/2009 3:29 PM (GMT -5) | | Vaughan said...
... the composers insist on ...
And of course, composers are world-renowned for their adherence and use of standard and efficient notation?
I have found through the years that composers are generally about as literate when it comes to musical notation as plumbers are about nuclear physics.
The most horrible scores I've seen have been notated by composers.
I always bemoaned the lack of a good "music notation" course as a standard element of a university composition program.
Sadly, far too many composers in this day and age are also not proficient on any single musical instrument... meaning they have very little practical performance experience, which translates into a complete lack of understanding of what, exactly, consists of "clear and logical notation".
Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2010
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010
Full GPO (Kontakt), GPO 4 (Aria), Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello, Garritan Concert and Marching Band
Win XP
Michel R. Edward
Composer, teacher, music administrator
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Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 1360
| Posted 10/31/2009 8:49 PM (GMT -5) | | Michael, you've just hit on one of my major pet peeves in a modern world which generally requires musicians to specialize to the extent that they have no experience whatsoever on any other instrument than 'their own'. Your remark about composers is all too often right on the mark. Same for many a musicologist who looks upon performing musicians as a kind of necessary evil. There are plenty of editions of early music available which attest to this lack of practical musical understanding. In the past, being a musician meant composing, singing, playing a high and a low stringed instrument, perhaps flute as well, and also knowing how to dance. I'd better get off the subject before the forum filter starts removing my expletives.
SF (and Peter): thanks for the tip! I'd forgotten about the clef designer.
Ron: I also find the 8 between parentheses a kind of unnecessary clutter but I can understand the [perhaps somewhat pedantic] desire for it in a piece alternating between 4-staff mixed choir and 1-staff unison sections. When notated in treble clef, the latter are, strictly speaking, sung both sono reale and 8vb.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 2010, Sibelius 4 - 6
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 5 plugin
MacOS 10.6.1
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (late 2008) 4GB
Kontakt 2, 3
Amsterdam | | Back to Top | |
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Ken-P
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 11/2/2009 2:37 AM (GMT -5) | | Really? You guys have no display speed difference between 2008 -2010?
Of course the type of the score and actual display area would affect the speed, but...
Let's say, I am displaying 25 stave from mid-sized orchestral score on 30inch monitor.
In my case, 2010 is half or 1/3 of the scroll display speed of 2008. | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 969
| Posted 11/2/2009 11:12 AM (GMT -5) | |
Vaughan said...
Michael, you've just hit on one of my major pet peeves in a modern world which generally requires musicians to specialize to the extent that they have no experience whatsoever on any other instrument than 'their own'. Your remark about composers is all too often right on the mark. Same for many a musicologist who looks upon performing musicians as a kind of necessary evil. There are plenty of editions of early music available which attest to this lack of practical musical understanding. In the past, being a musician meant composing, singing, playing a high and a low stringed instrument, perhaps flute as well, and also knowing how to dance. I'd better get off the subject before the forum filter starts removing my expletives.
I think what Michel may have been touching on is the emergence of "composers" *COUGH* who don't really play an instrument whatsoever.
I started encountering these a few years ago. They will be the death of me yet. 
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b using Speedy Entry, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs
"It is the job of copyist/arranger/composer to not only make the music clear and readable, but to also make it impossible to play incorrectly." - paraphrased from Bill Duncan
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Andy Platt
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 46
| Posted 11/2/2009 11:41 AM (GMT -5) | |
Flint said...
Vaughan said...
Michael, you've just hit on one of my major pet peeves in a modern world which generally requires musicians to specialize to the extent that they have no experience whatsoever on any other instrument than 'their own'. Your remark about composers is all too often right on the mark. Same for many a musicologist who looks upon performing musicians as a kind of necessary evil. There are plenty of editions of early music available which attest to this lack of practical musical understanding. In the past, being a musician meant composing, singing, playing a high and a low stringed instrument, perhaps flute as well, and also knowing how to dance. I'd better get off the subject before the forum filter starts removing my expletives.
I think what Michel may have been touching on is the emergence of "composers" *COUGH* who don't really play an instrument whatsoever.
I started encountering these a few years ago. They will be the death of me yet.
When you say a few years ago, did you mean Richard Wagner? 
Andy.
XP SP3, SongWriter 2010
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mikepilkington
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 152
| Posted 11/2/2009 11:46 AM (GMT -5) | | Composers can be a problem! This one may amuse: a piano score requiring the player to playe 4 quaver middle Cs with the RH while at the same time playing a minim middle C with the LH! I have managed to cure him of a number of follies over the years. They will often reform if you explain carefully why their notation is silly.
Michael | | Back to Top | |
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David Young : chambermusic
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2000
Total Posts : 2201
| Posted 11/2/2009 1:24 PM (GMT -5) | |
Flint said...
I think what Michel may have been touching on is the emergence of "composers" *COUGH* who don't really play an instrument whatsoever.
I started encountering these a few years ago. They will be the death of me yet.
There are a few of us, believe it or not, who actually compose quite well. I don't play any instruments an yet write quite reasonably good music. Well, in truth I took 6 years of violin as an adolescent, but learned bad habits and gave it up. Instead, I have poured countless hours studying hundreds of scores by the great composers and understand what a pianist can do, a string quartet, etc. If anything, I underestimate what can be done. And furthermore (I hope that I do not shock anyone) I have written for harp, but I will say that I need to know more about the harp so I have purchased 3 or 4 books on how to write for harp.
Yes, folks, it can be done, we can be trained. It just takes time, effort and a willingness to understand the instruments that you are writing for.
David
David Young
Composer of classical-romantic style chamber and orchestral music.
Finale 2.4 through 2010
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arranging and orchestration! | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 969
| Posted 11/2/2009 1:48 PM (GMT -5) | | | Oh, it's completely possible, David, and I do not doubt your ability. What I was waspishly referring to was to "composers" I have had to deal with who, quite frankly, don't know one note from another yet still insist on calling their work composition.
Or... those who couldn't tell one instrumental timbre from another if they couldn't see the name of sample they're using in their DAW.
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b using Speedy Entry, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs
"It is the job of copyist/arranger/composer to not only make the music clear and readable, but to also make it impossible to play incorrectly." - paraphrased from Bill DuncanPost Edited (Flint) : 11/2/2009 12:28:18 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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QcCowboy
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 2902
| Posted 11/2/2009 2:18 PM (GMT -5) | | David Ward said...
...but apparently that imaginative orchestrator Hector Berlioz could not play any instrument beyond a few strummed chords on the guitar.
Here is an example of not understanding all the mechanics of an instrument. Recently a youngish, but reasonably experienced, composer directed the orchestral cellos to play very high on the G string sul tasto (ie bow over the fingerboard). Think about it: it's impossible! When playing very high on an inner string it is pushed down out of reach of the bow unless that is quite near the bridge. Nevertheless, this composer is a good player on her own (non-string) instrument and a competent pianist to boot. What she should have done, of course, is shown the part to a cellist before it got to rehearsal; but that's a different issue.
To the best of my knowledge, while Berlioz could not have been mistaken for a "virtuoso" on the guitar, he was a quite passable player on that instrument.
He also played the flute.
And there is a piano solo score by a famous 20th century composer which has a right hand middle C played fortissimo, while the left hand simultaneously plays the SAME note pianissimo.
Yet this composer is renowned as a "conductor" (personally, I find his interpretations rather mechanical). Is he just an idiot? (I won't bother expressing what I believe the answer to that question should be).
Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2010
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010
Full GPO (Kontakt), GPO 4 (Aria), Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello, Garritan Concert and Marching Band
Win XP
Michel R. Edward
Composer, teacher, music administrator
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QcCowboy
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 2902
| Posted 11/2/2009 3:30 PM (GMT -5) | | Funny, I don't recall naming anyone, nor specifying a nationality.
Andrew Lloyd Webber is a composer of musicals. I don't know if he will merit a place or not in the pantheon of symphonists and "Serious" composers over the next few hundred years. I'm not sure I would use him as an example of "composer" when we are referring to notation, orchestration, and musical knowledge. This isn't to put him down. I happen to enjoy a lot o what he has written. I simply wouldn't put it in the same category as other "great composers".
As for Howard Shore, he is, again, a composer for a very specific genre: film music (and to anyone who dares name the "Lord of the Rings symphony" as an example of non-film music from is pen... have you heard it? It's not a symphony. It's a medley of "greatest hits" from a popular film score). Again, here we are talking about a composer who does not do all of his own orchestration, nor his own notation, thus falling outside the scope of this discussion.
And the piece in question has two short notes, struck simultaneously, at extremely opposite dynamics. There is no excusing the physical impossibility of it.
And to the others (ie: not addressed to Motet), please, quit it with the Private Messages?
Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2010
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010
Full GPO (Kontakt), GPO 4 (Aria), Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello, Garritan Concert and Marching Band
Win XP
Michel R. Edward
Composer, teacher, music administrator
Post Edited (QcCowboy) : 11/2/2009 2:14:59 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 1360
| Posted 11/2/2009 4:48 PM (GMT -5) | | I guess the real gripe has to do with composers who aren't well-versed in music theory or notational traditions and don't have enough practical understanding to avoid writing things which are either impossible or unnecessarily difficult to perform, and yet at the same time are arrogant.
@ KenP: scrolling while the Measure Tool is selected slows things down; the same goes for the Staff Tool and if you have Staff Styles and they're set to display, scrolling is MUCH slower. Otherwise, scrolling is very fast, even compared to earlier versions of Finale.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 2010, Sibelius 4 - 6
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 5 plugin
MacOS 10.6.1
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (late 2008) 4GB
Kontakt 2, 3
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