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Zalman770
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  		   Posted 10/29/2009 5:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi,

I'm a new user to Finale, & becoming a fan...

I'm writing music for young children, and I want to begin teaching them with numbers.

Is there a feature to put numbers INSIDE the note-heads, so that they can play with numbers but also start to pick up notation?

Thanks in advance,

Zalman
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Mike Rosen
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  		   Posted 10/29/2009 6:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zalman,

Welcome to the forum. Using this type of "crutch" has led to many a hot discussion on the forum, so prepare yourself!

Having said that, no, Finale doesn't have such a feature. There are fonts with letters in the noteheads, but I haven't seen numbers.


Mike Rosen
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NEW SITE www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996


"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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johnmouse
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  		   Posted 10/29/2009 8:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank God Finale doesn't have that feature! I learned to read music before I could read or write English. I've had students who I had to unteach a lot of bad habits and bad teaching practices; one of those just happen to be students who learned to read numbers instead of notes.

John

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mendoza
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  		   Posted 10/29/2009 9:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
@zalman770
 
You may try the use of expressions (see attachment):
(Attention! Measurement units=EVPU)
create expression (text)
expression designer/main:
input "8" (or any number 0 to 9), font arial 4 points
enclosure designer:
enclosure shape=elipse, check opaque, line thickness=0, height=2, width=6, center H=1, options=none
expression designer/positioning:
justification=center
horizontal alignment point=center of primary notehead
vertical alignment=top note
aditional entry offset=-5
Attach this expressions to the notes.
 
This settings are OK for a staff height=144 EVPU, wich is very appropiated for teaching children, but you will naturally play with all settings, according to your taste.
 
Viel Glück und Gruesse
 
 

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Saffron
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  		   Posted 10/29/2009 9:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

[9][20] [23][15][21][12][4] [2][5] [12][9][11][5] [16][21][20][20][9][14][7] [14][21][13][2][5][18][19] [9][14] [12][5][20][20][5][18][19] [15][6] [20][8][5] [1][12][16][8][1][2][5][20]: [23][15][21][12][4] [20][8][1][20] [8][5][12][16] [25][15][21] [18][5][1][4] [9][20]?

No, thought not - numbers are not that helpful!

Brian

 

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Saffron
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  		   Posted 10/29/2009 9:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

PS - to save you counting letters on your fingers, that last message simply read:

IT WOULD BE LIKE PUTTING NUMBERS IN LETTERS OF THE ALPHABET: WOULD THAT HELP YOU READ IT?

Brian


 

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Zalman770
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 2:40 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank you for all the information (including pm!)

Some of the children that I'm teaching may not know the 'abc', which is why I'm going to start with numbers, as I don't have time to teach them abc in the class.

I think I will write the numbers under the notes - makes it much easier (I assume this would be easy with the lyrics tool).

Thanks again,

Regards,

Zalman
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PeterQD
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 7:15 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Saffron said...

[9][20] [23][15][21][12] [12][9][11] [16][21][20][20][9][14][7] [14][21][13][18][19] [9][14] [12][20][20][18][19] [15][6] [20][8] [12][16][8][20]: [23][15][21][12] [20][8][20] [8][12][16] [25][15][21] [18] [9][20]?

No, thought not - numbers are not that helpful!

Brian

I agree numbers are confusing if they replace note names, but if they refer to the degree in the scale, figured bass, fingering guides or strings or frets etc, then numbers are not only helpful but essential sometimes. I do think the numbers should be separate from the noteheads though, and ideally their context should be explained. Lyrics are one way to do it, I prefer to create them as articulations using metatools.

18 years and still learning...

Post Edited (PeterQD) : 10/30/2009 10:29:46 AM (GMT-5)

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PeterQD
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 7:18 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why is it that people's fancy text formatting goes haywire in quotes?

18 years and still learning...

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Wiggy
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 7:34 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't understand how teaching children the numbers 1 to 8 is easier than teaching them A-G.

I could understand and read music notation by at least six, and could sight-sing reasonably well. Sight-reading piano was a bit slow, though.
Mind you, I didn't have a clue about sol-fa and was pretty oblivious to what the note's position on the scale was. But I could tell you what the note's name was.

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Post Edited (Wiggy) : 10/30/2009 6:42:09 AM (GMT-5)

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QcCowboy
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 7:40 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have to say, I started with note names as well.
and not "A-B-C".
I was taught in French, "do-re-mi" as fixed notes.
I see no reason to bypass children's inate ability to learn languages at an early age by assuming that they are like adults and need a crutch like numbers or colours.

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Michel R. Edward
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Saffron
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 10:14 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QcCowboy said...
I have to say, I started with note names as well.
and not "A-B-C".
I was taught in French, "do-re-mi" as fixed notes.
I see no reason to bypass children's inate ability to learn languages at an early age by assuming that they are like adults and need a crutch like numbers or colours.

Absolutely! Such schemes seem to me to be the result of grown-ups trying to project their own age-related loss of learning ability onto the fresh, inquisitive and formative minds of children.
 
Brian

 

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petey forrest
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 10:31 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Saffron said...

[9][20] [23][15][21][12][4] [2][5] [12][9][11][5] [16][21][20][20][9][14][7] [14][21][13][2][5][18][19] [9][14] [12][5][20][20][5][18][19] [15][6] [20][8][5] [1][12][16][8][1][2][5][20]: [23][15][21][12][4] [20][8][1][20] [8][5][12][16] [25][15][21] [18][5][1][4] [9][20]?

No, thought not - numbers are not that helpful!

Brian

Brian!  Wow!  You just did the opening to Bach's Toccata and Fugue in Dminor!   hehe

petey

 

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johnmouse
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 10:38 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I second that, Michel! As I posted earlier, I learned note names before I could read or write my own native language. Using numbers can cause quite a disadvantage to the dyslexic (is it a 2 or is it a 5? is it a 6 or is it a 9? So many choices!) . Using colors can be a problem for the color blind. Now the crutch becomes a wheelchair, and someone else has to push it. I'll stick with the tried and true.
Remember "new math?" Yeah, THAT was helpful.

John

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EpeeDad
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 12:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interestingly, I was in one of the original groups of students that were used as a test case for "New Math". This was FIFTY years ago! (Yikes!) What they did was give an IQ test to the entire 4th grade in our school and selected the top 10 students as test subjects. For the next year we had an extra segment for "New Math" every day. We still had the regular math instruction and were required to do all of the regular work for it. Lo and behold, we ate it up and were very successful in learning all of the concepts presented to us. I gather that this was the methodology for much of the testing of that program. It was then assumed that since these tests were so successful, that the program should be widely implemented. This was done widely from then until now. It is still being done in various forms (called something else, of course) today. It is a massive failure, in my opinion. We have generations of people that can't do basic arithmetic operations. Folks blame calculators but the problem predates those by about a decade.

The real flaw was in the original testing methodology. They shouldn't have selected the ten brightest kids! We would have learned math well even if that had taught it to us in Kyrga (the language of Kyrgyzstan). If they had chosen average kids, the results would have been very different, I suspect.

I agree that crutches are usually not a good idea for music instruction. They certainly aren't in fencing instruction. I teach fencing (second job) and my wife teaches violin professionally these days so we have some experience in this area.

Regards,
Chris

BTW, I suspect that most of the folks that participate this forum would have been selected for those tests! Folks that are seriously interested in music notation software would tend towards that extreme right end of the Gaussian distribution. :)


johnmouse said...
I second that, Michel! As I posted earlier, I learned note names before I could read or write my own native language. Using numbers can cause quite a disadvantage to the dyslexic (is it a 2 or is it a 5? is it a 6 or is it a 9? So many choices!) . Using colors can be a problem for the color blind. Now the crutch becomes a wheelchair, and someone else has to push it. I'll stick with the tried and true.
Remember "new math?" Yeah, THAT was helpful.
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Gareth Green
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 1:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's also a question of efficiency, it seems to me. The kids are going to have to learn the correct note names at some point, so why waste time teaching a second, ultimately redundant method?

 
Gareth J. Green
 
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PeterQD
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 2:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can I ask, in this number method are the numbers fixed to lines and spaces or moveable like tonic sol-fa? If, for instance, a B always is No.7, even in the key of G, that has to be a very confusing and unnecessary way of doing things. What happens with semitones?

EDIT I'll rephrase a part of that:
If, for instance, a B always is No.7, even in the key of 5, that has to be a very confusing and unnecessary way of doing things.

18 years and still learning...

Post Edited (PeterQD) : 10/30/2009 1:40:59 PM (GMT-5)

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johnmouse
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 2:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PeterQD said...
What happens with semitones?


Decimals? freaked

John

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PeterQD
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 2:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
johnmouse said...
PeterQD said...
What happens with semitones?


Decimals? freaked

lol That would work for sharps, what about flats?

18 years and still learning...

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Vaughan
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 2:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter said...
That would work for sharps, what about flats?

Negative integers, of course. Problem is, what do you do for rests?

Zalman, sorry for all these outbursts, but most of us obviously feel quite adamant about this. I also feel it terribly wasteful to teach children something they're later going to have to unlearn. I can understand your desire to get them playing pieces which are more difficult than their ability to read might warrant, but that's where the ability to use one's ears comes in. Teaching children by rote concurrently with teaching them to read exercises their aural abilities as well as retrospectively aiding their visual recognition and enabling them to correlate both. Correlating notes with numbers is introducing an irrelevant element, whether or not the children know the alphabet.

Vaughan

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mendoza
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 3:02 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I hope my statement is properly understood, despite my weak English.
 
As a musician, I actually agree completely with all your objections, however: are you not too strict in a wrong direction?
 
Can we all act in our daily work as altruistic and uncompromising towards chef and/or customers? Setting numbers in noteheads is none other than securing the own income.
 
There are of course children who are still able to learn music (and everything else) in a "conventional and normal manner (learn+practice, practice, practice...)". But there are fewer and fewer...
 
Grüsse, regads

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Saffron
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 3:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
johnmouse said...
PeterQD said...
What happens with semitones?


Decimals? freaked

You could introduce a time sig of "pi/4", or maybe even a staff with 5.25 lines and 4.75 spaces. Heck, why stop there - complex numbers are the obvious next step! lol
 
Brian

 

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Mike Rosen
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  		   Posted 10/30/2009 6:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How would those numbers work, anyway? Would you have the keys numbered to match: see a 5, play a 5? If that's the case, better you should make little scale diagrams, so they see a note on the third line, and play the key with the note on the third line.


Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

WebMaster for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
NEW SITE www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996


"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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PeterQD
Win Fin v2 - 2009



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  		   Posted 10/31/2009 6:32 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I know there are people who sadly find reading difficult, but I would be frankly very surprised if there are that many kids who can recognise numerals and put them in the proper order, but can't do the same with letters A-G (or do-re-mi etc). Surely learning letters can't be very far behind. I tend to feel they're not ready to learn to read music until they can.

18 years and still learning...

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Saffron
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  		   Posted 10/31/2009 7:10 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Julie Andrews would never have got the hollywood Von Trapps into the charts by singing, "1, a deer, a female deer, 2, a drop of golden sun", especially as the "drink with jam and bread" line would not even have scanned properly. lol
 
Brian

 

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