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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows > Unwanted transposition copying to/from independent key signatures | Forum Quick Jump
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Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø
      
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087
| Posted 11/6/2009 5:50 PM (GMT -5) |   | Can someone with Finale 2010 open the attached .MUS file and see if the bug described still exists? I would like to report this to MM. In 2005, copying the horn part into the piano part results in notes mistransposed a minor seventh too high. This happens with the Cue Notes plug-in as well, which is where it really vexes me.
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Finale 2005b Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3 Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM Post Edited (Motet) : 11/9/2009 5:58:23 PM (GMT-6) Image Attachment :
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 11751
| Posted 11/7/2009 3:48 AM (GMT -5) | | I don't see this as a bug.
First of all, I can't see how this varies with the time signature. Possibly you meant the key signature.
Second, because you have set the key signature as C, that is a minor seventh from the actual key signature. That is why you are off by a minor seventh. Dragging to that staff is transposing to Bflat, and doing that up (that must be the default choice, as opposed to down).
This is behaving just as you have designed it. The answer is to copy with the transposition set according to the difference between the independent signature and the real signature. This is done (in 2005) with the Mass Edit Tool. Choose to copy all, then set the transposition in the entries to down a minor seventh.. Problem solved.
As to the cue plugin, I don't know that you can change the transposition. Therefore, you will have to transpose down a minor 7th after the fact.
For other real key signatures, you'll have to do the math, as you have said, and transpose accordingly.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
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Mike Rosen
himself
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 6553
| Posted 11/7/2009 11:35 AM (GMT -5) | | | |
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francois_harel
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 413
| Posted 11/7/2009 1:49 PM (GMT -5) | | Zuill,...
The troll is back !
Happy that you come back
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Francois Harel, Montreal, Canada
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Finale 2010a, Sonar PE 8.5.1, Notion 3
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Motet
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087
| Posted 11/7/2009 8:59 PM (GMT -5) | |
N. Grossingink said...
Just set the staff to chromatic up a 5th transposition and deselect display of key signature. You might also have to check the staff attribute "ignore key signatures".
I'm not on my Finale computer at the moment, but with chromatic transposition (which this example already uses) and a suppressed key signature, will the Bb have a flat, since that's covered by the (suppressed) key signature? I don't know about "ignore key signature"--will that do it? If not, and I have to force the flat or sharp to display for every such "non-accidental" accidental, that's a no-go, since it's extremely error prone and would not be caught with play-back.
It's nice to see you again, Zuill; you've been most helpful to me over the years. I don't see how the current behavior can possibly be a feature, since the horn part plays back correctly. Why should copying the notes to another staff change their pitch? What possible use is that? My trouble is indeed with the cue-notes plug-in (I use the TGTools version). Yes, I meant key signature, not time signature. Since the post-copy clean-up transposition is different for every key signature, this is very inconvenient and error-prone.
If N. Grossingink is correct and it's merely a matter of hiding/ignoring the key signature, I'll happily do away with independent key signature. But I seem to recall when I worked out years ago how to get the desired horn notation (I use it for timpani, too), a C major key signature was necessary to get the accidentals to show. But hopefully I'm wrong!
Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAMPost Edited (Motet) : 11/7/2009 7:02:19 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087
| Posted 11/8/2009 2:12 AM (GMT -5) | | |
So, no dice.
If I get rid of "independent key signature," then the F Horn's key signature will be F major:
OK. But if I then hide the key signature in the measure attributes, it does merely that--no flat magically appears on the B, so it now erroneously looks like a B natural. This is the case whether transposition is chromatic or not. I would have to manually tweak every such "accidental," which as I've said is not only a hassle but error-prone, since it plays back as a B flat.
"Ignore key signature" seems to be a lot like "Independent key signature." With this selected, the same (mis-)transposition occurs when copying or using the Cue Notes plug-in. If anyone has any other ideas, I'd like to hear them.
I tried an independent key signature with a non-transposing instrument, too, and got the same result. It seems to me that independent key signatures are useful for Ivesian polytonal situations, where one instrument might be in C major and another in D major. But a G is still a G no matter what the key signature. So if you copy a G from one staff to the other, why don't you get a G?
Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAMPost Edited (Motet) : 11/8/2009 1:29:56 AM (GMT-6)
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Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087
| Posted 11/8/2009 1:42 PM (GMT -5) | |
PeterQD said...
Of course Finale won't show automatically show accidentals on pitches that are in the key signature, even if it's hidden. Hence the need for an independent key signature of C major, which is why I was using it in the first place, and I thought was clear from my original posting--I didn't just enable it on on a whim!
I don't know about "diatonic cautionary accidentals"--what the heck are those? Unfortunately that plug-in has some serious problems, as many have reported here (Doug Blackmore did a thorough study at one point), especially if you try to make changes after you apply it. I do use it at the very end of my process to mark ordinary cautionary accidentals, so perhaps it could help here. This all seems hokey, though--the independent key signature does exactly what I want, except for the mis-copying.
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Jetcopy
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2000
Total Posts : 2691
| Posted 11/8/2009 3:51 PM (GMT -5) | | Ron. said...
I always write "atonally," and have never had a problem with transposing instruments, either in entry or in copying. The only change I have to make for transposing instruments (except for octave transpositions) is that when I start I go through all the staffs and mark them to transpose chromatically, rather than diatonically. It is easy enough to switch between concert view and transposed view. There is no need to set staffs to "independant key signatures." The "key" of C does act like an non-key, exactly as I'd expect it to. I can't help but think that perhaps some folks are over-thinking this? Maybe? Or am I missing something?
Motet's situation is when a piece uses a key signature, but the horns need to be displayed without one. It's different from an entire piece written atonally.
JT
Edit: In my previous post, I made reference to neutral keys. I should have specified that I was also referring to neutral key instrument transpositions. This is one area where Sibelius has the upper hand on Finale. When creating a new score in Sibelius, and you decide to add a Horn in F, you have two choices. Horn in F or Horn in F (w/neutral key). The same choice is given to other brass instruments who might be written sans key signatures. These choices are built into the system, requiring no further workarounds.
Finale needs this feature. If everyone who's reading this thread sent in a feature request for this, it might get noticed and implemented.
G4 Powerbook, OSX 10.4.11, 1.67 GHz, 2 GB ramPost Edited (Jetcopy) : 11/8/2009 2:09:29 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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N. Grossingink
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 1673
| Posted 11/8/2009 3:52 PM (GMT -5) | | Ron. said...
I always write "atonally," and have never had a problem with transposing instruments, either in entry or in copying. The only change I have to make for transposing instruments (except for octave transpositions) is that when I start I go through all the staffs and mark them to transpose chromatically, rather than diatonically. It is easy enough to switch between concert view and transposed view. There is no need to set staffs to "independant key signatures." The "key" of C does act like an non-key, exactly as I'd expect it to. I can't help but think that perhaps some folks are over-thinking this? Maybe? Or am I missing something?
Ron, you make a good point. When you create an entire score using "neutral key" on each staff, there is no problem.
But the catch is when you have staves set to regular transposition mixed with staves with no key, as in the Horn/Piano score above. I thought I had the solution in my answer above, but I appear to be wrong. As a matter of fact, I searched the forum a bit and found some previous discussion on this topic that indicates there is no sure solution.
If anyone can speak to this problem further, I'd appreciate it as would many others.
N.
Finale 2006c, 2007c, 2008b, 2010
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Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087
| Posted 11/9/2009 3:19 AM (GMT -5) | |
| Peter, thanks for your suggestions. I'm entitled to raise objections to them, but it doesn't mean I'm unappreciative. If I seemed a little impatient it had more to do with having to repeat myself.
Your final suggestion results in "independent key signature" checked, so we're back to square one with the copy problem.
I'm glad to learn about "diatonic accidentals." Never heard the term. Is that a Finale invention? They would seem to be useful for music intended for beginning music students, and indeed also in this horn situation. I'll try it, but as I said, the plug-in is buggy.
One can argue about whether horn parts should have key signatures, but this key-signatureless notation was standard in orchestral music of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It's surprising that one has to go to such shennanigans as we've been discussing to achieve a standard notation. I'm happy to hear that Sibelius got it right.
No one has yet convinced me that the transpostion that results while copying to or from an independent key signature is a useful feature. As I said, a G is a G is a G (transposition aside) regardless of the key signature. So why does it change to a different pitch when you copy it? |
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PeterQD
Win Fin v2 - 2009
Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 507
| Posted 11/9/2009 6:08 AM (GMT -5) | | Motet said...
Your final suggestion results in "independent key signature" checked, so we're back to square one with the copy problem.
One can argue about whether horn parts should have key signatures, but this key-signatureless notation was standard in orchestral music of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It's surprising that one has to go to such shennanigans as we've been discussing to achieve a standard notation. I'm happy to hear that Sibelius got it right.
No one has yet convinced me that the transpostion that results while copying to or from an independent key signature is a useful feature. As I said, a G is a G is a G (transposition aside) regardless of the key signature. So why does it change to a different pitch when you copy it?
It doesn't - it changes to a different pitch when you apply the independent key signature and hold the written notes to the original staff positions. That ruins the transposition. The answer is to copy BEFORE you set the independent key sig. Back to square one? Not quite I think, at least you now know it's not a bug and understand why the transposition has changed.
The confusion stems from thinking that keyless music for horns is in the key of C - it isn't. For all transposing instruments, the written notation is transposed from concert pitch so that a written C natural produces the fundamental note of the instrument. Horns are no different - when the hornist plays a written C the sound produced is F natural, and this applies whether or not there is a key signature. Therefore keyless music is NOT transposed to the key of C, it just looks that way. When you apply the independent key sig you are are actually tricking Finale into making the music LOOK correct, but the notes now sound at the wrong pitches. Hence the apparent error when you try to copy and paste them.
I'm not a hornist myself, but I have many friends who are. I asked one of them his views on keyless staves and this was his reply:
hornist said...
As a hornist, I hate playing parts messed up with needless accidentals when a key signature would be more appropriate, yet someone seems to have started a malicious rumor that Hornists don't like/understand/use key signatures.
It may be that there is confusion regarding the old practice of writing the horn parts in the key of the piece and expecting the hornist to transpose (thus, there would not be a key signature - and accidentals would be rare). This, of course goes even further back to when horns were valveless, and had to be set to a particular key using crooks or different sized horns in a specific key. While this makes sense, it doesn't apply if the part is written already transposed for Horn in F. In that case, just use a key signature like any other wind instrument would use.
If the part is atonal, and using a key signature would give a false sense of tonality, or result in an even messier part, then by all means, notate every accidental.
The part about the malicious rumour sounds like a plea from the heart!  My take on it is is that unless you're intentionally trying to produce a facsimile of old music, it's better to write for valved horns with a transposed key signature, just like all other transposing brass. I think he would like to hear what you feel about it.
Peter
18 years and still learning...Post Edited (PeterQD) : 11/9/2009 4:11:51 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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