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Saffron
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| Posted 7/30/2010 10:28 AM (GMT -5) |   | Ken, while you may be technically correct, I think it's true to say that in everyday music, I only ever see staccato markings over "black" noteheads - ie, crotchet or shorter. And my interpretation of these has always been to play a short - er, for want of a better word, "staccato" - note, leaving the remainder of the beat/sub-beat silent until the next note.
Admittedly my "everyday" music does not include conducting Berlioz or Bruckner, but in everything from Bach, Beethoven and Brahms to Broadway, staccato seems to imply abruptly released, short notes or chords - in my experience, at least!
Brian
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QcCowboy
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| Posted 7/30/2010 11:06 AM (GMT -5) | | The reason I suggest number 3 without the dot, is that number 4, which the OP has included, is basically that.
By standard rules of musical logic, the dot cuts the value of the note in half.
Therefore, example 4 is exactly equal to "example 3 minus the dot".
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Flint
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| Posted 7/30/2010 11:24 AM (GMT -5) | | It's interesting to see people trot out Mozart and Berlioz when defending "modern" notation. Two- and three-hundred year old notation is anything but modern, and certainly not relevant.
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If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read | | Back to Top | |
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sschimel
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| Posted 7/30/2010 5:43 PM (GMT -5) | | | As a singer, here's my best response. WHAT? I'm supposed to worry about Rhythm? | | Back to Top | |
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QcCowboy
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| Posted 7/30/2010 8:42 PM (GMT -5) | | Saffron said...sschimel said...
As a singer, here's my best response. WHAT? I'm supposed to worry about Rhythm? Don't you mean, " WHAT? I'm supposed to worry about the NOTES?"  Brian
Oh, please. Who cares what singers think... they're not really musicians anyway.
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KennethKen
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| Posted 7/30/2010 9:08 PM (GMT -5) | |
Flint said...
It's interesting to see people trot out Mozart and Berlioz when defending "modern" notation. Two- and three-hundred year old notation is anything but modern, and certainly not relevant. Thousands of musicians learn to read music through the study of two and three hundred year old notation. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "modern" but it is still in use and, therefore, certainly relevant.
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KennethKen
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| Posted 7/30/2010 9:15 PM (GMT -5) | |
QcCowboy said...
The reason I suggest number 3 without the dot, is that number 4, which the OP has included, is basically that.
By standard rules of musical logic, the dot cuts the value of the note in half.
Therefore, example 4 is exactly equal to "example 3 minus the dot". Your experience appears to be much different than mind. I've never studied, taught or played with a musician whose interpretation and execution of a staccato was exactly half of the note value. Most simply play the note short, detached and/or lightly depending on context. I've never had a conductor ask me to sub-divide a note because of its staccato mark...but I suppose there could always be a first.
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KennethKen
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| Posted 7/30/2010 9:21 PM (GMT -5) | |
QcCowboy said...
Saffron said...
sschimel said...
As a singer, here's my best response. WHAT? I'm supposed to worry about Rhythm? Don't you mean, " WHAT? I'm supposed to worry about the NOTES?" Brian Oh, please. Who cares what singers think... they're not really musicians anyway. It's possible that they're not even human, but a form of homo-erectus/C.H.U.D. hybrid.
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Zuill
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| Posted 7/30/2010 10:55 PM (GMT -5) | | A half note with a staccato is a quarter note followed by a quarter rest. Having said that, style does dictate the nuance of a staccato. Comparing Bach and Chopin yields a difference. Shorter in Chopin, generally. And different instruments will have different techniques, thus different output. And then there's staccato-legato (or legato-staccato).
It ain't a simple matter. There's no long and short of it. Just short.
Zuill
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warrenbarnett
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| Posted 7/31/2010 5:25 AM (GMT -5) | | The default setting in the Finale articulation list is only 40%. Perhaps that is just to make it sound best for most people's taste.
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warrenbarnett
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| Posted 7/31/2010 7:07 AM (GMT -5) | | It would seem to me, that if all that is required is a shortened duration of the note, then there is no need to tie it to another note, but just to notate it for the duration requested. Although there is nothing wrong with using a staccato over a tie, it seems unnecessary. If you want the sound of the note altered in a certain way when it is to finish, then I can understand the need for the staccato marking with the tie.
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QcCowboy
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| Posted 7/31/2010 8:03 AM (GMT -5) | | KennethKen said...QcCowboy said...
The reason I suggest number 3 without the dot, is that number 4, which the OP has included, is basically that.
By standard rules of musical logic, the dot cuts the value of the note in half.
Therefore, example 4 is exactly equal to "example 3 minus the dot". Your experience appears to be much different than mind. I've never studied, taught or played with a musician whose interpretation and execution of a staccato was exactly half of the note value. Most simply play the note short, detached and/or lightly depending on context. I've never had a conductor ask me to sub-divide a note because of its staccato mark...but I suppose there could always be a first.
yes, our experiences DO appear to be different, as do the sources from which we glean information.
as I said, "by standard rules of musical logic" a staccato dot shortens a note's value by half. And yes, you will find this definition in most theory texts. at least, in every theory text on my shelf and pretty much every theory website I've visited as well.
In all of my training, from childhood through graduate degree, a staccato has been defined as that.
And yes, while there has also been the caveat "but of course, it varies depending on context", the basic definition has remained the same.
Some staccato notes are shorter in certain contexts, and others are slightly longer.
But the general definition has always been "makes the note one half its written length".
and no, Zuill, it has nothing to do with the fact that Finale by default defines its staccato values as 50%.
I generally lengthen or shorten this definition to get the effect I want.
No one is talking about multiple staccatos under a slur either, which would be yet another form of notation.
I'm not talking about "exactly half".
I said "standard rule of musical logic".
I should probably have said "since a staccato dot GENERALLY defines the interpretation of the note as being one half its value".
I still say example 3, minus the dot.
As so many have insisted upon, the staccato dot is generally seen as an ARTICULATION, and as such, the tied note cannot be - by definition - articulated.
Therefore, in this particular example, the staccato dot takes on the alternate definition of a "length modifier".
As such, I think that simply writing the appropriate note value is far clearer.
My objection to number 4 is that it looks contradictory to have a "long note, shortened" in the middle of a bunch of short notes.
Number 4 will also acquire a certain accented quality due to the staccato, with most "normal" interpretations.
Michel R. Edward
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Fred G. Unn
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| Posted 7/31/2010 2:18 PM (GMT -5) | | As a copyist, I always try to make the music so clear that a performer with sufficient technical ability can sightread it perfectly. I'm not sure what ensembles everyone here writes for but often I have very limited rehearsal time, subs on the gig, less than ideal performance conditions, etc., so clarity of notation is very important. Without any context to go by number 4 is just wrong. Beat 3 needs to be visible in 4/4 time in that example. Perhaps if there's a 3 or 5 beat hemiola (5/4 over 4/4) or something then it would be acceptable as it continues a rhythmic pattern, but other than that it's certainly not as clear and therefore fails the sightreading test. Examples 1 & 2 are not as clear either, although 1 will often be found in 1940s era stock charts. #3 is the clear winner with or without the staccato depending on how the OP wants it played as there is a slight difference between the two.
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KennethKen
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| Posted 8/1/2010 11:16 PM (GMT -5) | |
QcCowboy said...
as I said, "by standard rules of musical logic" a staccato dot shortens a note's value by half. And yes, you will find this definition in most theory texts. at least, in every theory text on my shelf and pretty much every theory website I've visited as well.
Not sure what you mean by "musical logic". If you're referring to the 1/8 note - 1/4 note terminology I hardly think that the logic of that naming convention applies to "staccato" any more than it does to "tenuto" or "marcato". There's nothing logical about those terms (in that someone from a different background could deduce what you mean by them like 1/4 note-1/8 note). You've just learned from your sources that that's what they mean. Is there a logic to the length of a note with the small wedge staccato mark over it? And yes my text books and web sites say nothing about a staccato being defined as halve a note length. In fact, the Harvard Dictionary of Music , 2nd edition defines it as follows:
A manner of performance indicated by a dot or the sign [wedge symbol] placed over the note, calling for a reduction of its written duration with a rest substituted for half or more of its value. Thus, a quarter note will be reduced to perhaps a sixteenth note, followed by three sixteenth rests. ...
And that's my point. Assuming we're both reasonably logical and musically educated people, we can still learn, interpret and execute the OP's staccato differently. So giving what you refer to as a "standard rule of musical logic" or "basic definition" or "general rule" can be misleading in this case as to what the OP can expect from his notation.
Perhaps you or people that you know actually apply that the definition you cite - subdividing the release of staccato notes, but I have never done so and I certainly would never hold that against either of us.  The important distiction I'm trying to make is that with this marking there is a range of what he will hear based on more important factors than subdivision of the note and that these factors must be given higher consideration when notating such a passages. I've tried to give context to my advice to make it a little more meaningful. If the OP would like visual examples, I'd be happy to oblige.
Anyway, from the OP's posts on 7/29 at 5:21 and 5:58 I can't tell exactly what length he wants or the context. 
Ken
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QcCowboy
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| Posted 8/2/2010 2:56 AM (GMT -5) | | I'm sorry you don't understand what I mean by "musical logic".
I stand by my opinion on the better choice of notation for the OP's question. Example 3, minus the staccato dot.
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Peter West
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| Posted 8/2/2010 6:59 AM (GMT -5) | | QcCowboy said...
I'm sorry you don't understand what I mean by "musical logic".
I stand by my opinion on the better choice of notation for the OP's question. Example 3, minus the staccato dot.
As I said before, I agree, this is the only notation that is musically logical.
It is too easy to get over indulgent in theory, history and interpretation, but the bottom line, I think, is to maintain simplicity. Options 1 and 2 will hold up the rehearsal while the players try to negotiate what is meant, option 4 will cause sight-reading hicups, option 3 as it stands will cause the note with the staccato to be snatched, or at least sound inappropriately shortened. Option 3 without the dot is the only logical choice.
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warrenbarnett
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| Posted 8/2/2010 11:36 AM (GMT -5) | |
Peter West said...
Option 3 without the dot is the only logical choice. I agree with Peter, assuming, of course, that the intent is to play the note 50% of the value of a quarter note. But as I said earlier, if the intent is to alter the method of terminating the sound requires a method other than stopping production of the sound, then you may want to find a different notation. The question is, does a staccato (50%) quarter note actually sound like an 8th note? Or, depending on the instrument, does if presume a difference in the way that the sound is stopped. For example, should a woodwind player use his/her tongue in a different manner to stop the sound, so that it sounds abrupt or just short?
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KennethKen
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| Posted 8/2/2010 1:10 PM (GMT -5) | | |
SAJ,
Here's a context where the use of your original 3rd option is perfectly fine and, even preferred, with the dot (measure 4) as opposed to without (measure 3).
Ken
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