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Adam W.
Forum Moderator



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Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 54
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 11:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
These forums were originally created to provide a way for our passionate Finale users to share ideas, provide valuable input, and find answers from our community. A number of other great public forums for discussion about our products and best practices have become available since this platform first began. These include Facebook, SHSU, Twitter, Yahoo and various other forums and blogs. Also, as many of you know, the release of our new Help Center over the summer provides another avenue for discussion and input.

In an effort to provide a centralized, accessible, and most of all, helpful community for all of our customers, we are focusing our resources on the new forums in our Help Center Community. As of January 1st, 2017, we will only monitor and support these new forums. At that time these existing forums will be locked.

We want this large body of valuable information to remain available, so while these forums will be locked at the end of the year, they will be archived so that they can still be accessed by those looking for any of the helpful historical information located here.

We want to thank you for the value you’ve already provided to MakeMusic and its customers in these forums, and we look forward to seeing you in our new Help Center Community!

Best,

Adam Wig
Director, Customer Success

Michael Johnson
Vice President, Professional Notation


Fred Flowerday,
Senior Vice President, Product Strategy
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Mike Rosen
himself



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Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 12:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You are making a big mistake. The new forum is worthless in its current format. There is no way to see who made the last comment without going into the thread. Posting files or pictures is unwieldy. "Voting" on comments is absurd.

I will strongly suggest that current users bring their years of expertise, and come join us on the "other" Finale forum, at http://www.finaleforum.com.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Ralph L. Bowers Jr.
Polymathist



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Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 883
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 12:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Without substantial improvements, improvements that were recommended when you first brought out this new site for Finale users I can only reiterate my initial response.
What kind of idiots do you have working for Make Music to believe this is acceptable?

To many queries get no response whatsoever, and some are not answered in any depth that is needed.

I'd really like to know your thought process' in the decision that this is of any benefit to the user base in its current form?


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.4.2, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, Notion 5 (Notion 5 not really any better than 4, [Notion 6 (bought but not installed)]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), 2@ Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

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HaraldS
Registered Member

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Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 310
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 1:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You're heading into the wrong direction, I'm afraid. As for the "Feature Request" Forum: Adam, three months ago, you promised to consider how to make this forum more effective, do you remember?: https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/218091567-Here-is-a-request-about-this-Forum . Nothing has happened since. Instead of moving misplaced threads to the appropriate General Discussion Forum, you don't seem to care: https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/214070088-Using-Cross-staff-notes-in-FinalePrintmusic2014- . The Feature Request Forum is a good idea in general, but if you don't moderate it and don't seem to care about your own Feature Request House Rules ( https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/topics/200449177-Finale-Feature-Requests ), better close it, please.

And another thought: in today's times, when Dorico's chief developer spends lots of time to answer questions on their forum personally, do you really think it would enhance Finale's customer's success if you replace this forum by new ones? I don't think so. Instead it's time to get in touch directly with the users like e.g. Randy Stokes did in former times here.

Harald


Finale 3.0-2014.5, german edition, Windows 7
mostly hardware synths/keys, Cubase 7 / trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 2:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I vote for keeping this forum as well. I am not comfortable with the other format, and my forum days might be coming to an end. Too bad.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Ron.
Composer



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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 2:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I guess my 14 years of providing help and advice is coming to an end. I will not use the amateurish and badly constructed "new" help forum. I'll miss the troll--among others.


Finale 25.1

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 3:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What MM doesn't fully realize, I think, is that Finale is so arcane that a customer support person, no matter how smart, is going to have limited knowledge compared with someone who has lived with the program day in and day out for 10 years or more. I know these forums have been invaluable to me.

The new forums are terrible for several reasons, and I'm not sure are workable for me. I wonder if they've signed some multi-year contract or could instead find something better.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Bill Reed
Registered Member



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Date Joined Feb 2001
Total Posts : 1203
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 3:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ironic that Adam's link to the help center doesn't work...


Finale 25, Sibelius 8.4, Notion 6, Overture 5.1, Cubase 8.5
Win10 x64, 32GB RAM
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
Kontakt, VSL, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos
August Forster 190

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 3:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ironic indeed. And foreboding.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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mm
Registered Member

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Date Joined Mar 1999
Total Posts : 715
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 4:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm with you all. Absolutely. Everything said ist spot on. This so-called new Help Center is idiotic and useless. And thanks to all who have so passionately participated on this now gracelessly dying forum - I've learned so much and always found an answer when I needed it. Shame on Make Music. Customer Success? Ha!


Finale 3.7 - 2014.5, GPO4/5, Dorico, Cubase, ProTools, ASUS laptop, Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, WIN 8.1 (64-bit), 18.4'' display, M-Audio Keystation 49 + Mini 32 keyboards

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Derrek
Registered Member

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Total Posts : 2347
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 4:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If this forum is to be archived, how will anyone find anything with the current, broken search function?

This forum is not perfect, but it is vastly more user friendly than the new one(s)--and I say that as someone who has used both extensively, not to mention the Steinberg/Dorico Forum. I've made a note of the site Mike suggested and will look for the FB PowerUsers site.


Finale 2014.5, Finale 25.1 - Windows 7 (64-bit)
GPO 5, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum, Dorico)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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michelp
Registered Member

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Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 2232
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 5:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I fully agree. The new forum doesn't meet professional standards. The shortcomings are many, like Mike Rosen and others pointed out. It is not even possible to see what software, and which version the poster is using : PrintMusic, Finale 20XX ? Which Os they use, etc... A huge mess, no logic, no organization. I second Jan's suggestion to move to a better forum tool, because what we need is more, not less content and usability. And don't get me started on the Facebook page !
MM, you are shooting yourself in the foot !


Michel
Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2012c (main), MacOsX 10.11.6, Mac Mini Intel i7 2,7 Ghz, 16 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. MOTU Audio Express.

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CV186
Registered Member

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Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 358
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 6:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is very sad news. I've tried the new "Help Center" several times and it seems almost completely useless.


2.8GHz MacBookPro11,1 | 8GB RAM | OSX10.12.1 | Fin25.1/2014.5 | MOTU Traveler1 | GPO4+5

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 6:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jange's information about migrating the data is excellent. Do that!


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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MSTSmusic
Helsinki, Finland



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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 52
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 6:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This the way to make sure Dorico will kill Finale sooner, not later. Good job.


Bought Finale (V2.0.1) for PC on Tuesday 3rd of March 1992. Yesterday, that is.

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Michel R. E.
Registered Member



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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 7:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
why don't MakeMusic simply switch all help centre activity to Twitter?

/s


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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gogreen
Registered Member



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Date Joined Dec 1999
Total Posts : 1618
 
   Posted 12/1/2016 8:44 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Adam, Michael, and Fred said...
These forums were originally created to provide a way for our passionate Finale users to share ideas, provide valuable input, and find answers from our community. A number of other great public forums for discussion about our products and best practices have become available since this platform first began. These include Facebook, SHSU, Twitter, Yahoo and various other forums and blogs. Also, as many of you know, the release of our new Help Center over the summer provides another avenue for discussion and input.

In an effort to provide a centralized, accessible, and most of all, helpful community for all of our customers, we are focusing our resources on the new forums in our Help Center Community. As of January 1st, 2017, we will only monitor and support these new forums. At that time these existing forums will be locked.

We want this large body of valuable information to remain available, so while these forums will be locked at the end of the year, they will be archived so that they can still be accessed by those looking for any of the helpful historical information located here.

We want to thank you for the value you’ve already provided to MakeMusic and its customers in these forums, and we look forward to seeing you in our new Help Center Community!

Best,

Adam Wig
Director, Customer Success

Michael Johnson
Vice President, Professional Notation


Fred Flowerday,
Senior Vice President, Product Strategy

Adam, Michael, and Fred: As constructively as I can say, I must say you're making a big mistake. You should migrate this forum and its wealth of information to new software and keep it going.


Arthur J. Michaels

/www.facebook.com/composerarthurjmichaels

Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2, 2014d, 2014.5, Finale 25
Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 10 Home x64
Garritan COMB2, GPO4, GPO5, Aria Player 1.872, Audacity 2.1.2
Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200
M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496
Casio WK-3000
M-Audio AV40 monitors
AKG K-240 Studio headphones
Brother MFC-L2740DW printer

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David Clarence
Player of Notes



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Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 134
 
   Posted 12/2/2016 12:51 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I second all of the above. Closing this forum is crazy. I have learnt so much and gotten out of so many holes thanks to the freely given advice from its many knowledgeable denizens that I shudder to think what it would be like without it. The new forums seem useless by comparison. MM should seriously reconsider such a short-sighted decision.


Finale 2014.5, v25.1
macOS Sierra 10.12
Full TGTools
JW Plug-ins

iMac 21.5" 2.7GHz Intel Core i5 8GB RAM

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SysExJohn
Registered Member



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Date Joined Jan 2014
Total Posts : 57
 
   Posted 12/2/2016 7:57 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, if they do go ahead, then GPO5 will be my LAST Garritan product, and my next version of notation software will NOT be Finale.

Not that my feelings will make one iota of difference to a "management decision", in my experience.
There are none as deaf as those who will not hear.

A sad, sad day.


John Garside.

at MIDI-tutor.proboards.com

Finale 2012c, Sonar 7 PE, XGworks.
Garritan GPO4, JABB, COMB, IO, Organs, Steinway, Harps + GPO5.
E-MU 1616m PCI and Cardbus x 2.
Yamaha AN1x.

Post Edited (SysExJohn) : 12/2/2016 6:00:18 AM (GMT-6)

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johnmouse
Registered Member



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Total Posts : 849
 
   Posted 12/2/2016 8:48 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Huge mistake! Questions and answers from users are valuable. What SHOULD HAVE been done, years ago, as foretold and promised (yet another broken promise), would have been to migrate to new forum software. I have used MM's help center before, and frankly it's about as useful as teats on a boar hog.

I agree with jange and others. Simply migrate this current forum to software that is actually in use today. Even if the present content is archived as read only, it would still be useful. Presently, by locking this forum, you might as well just delete the entire thing as the search function does not work, and has not worked for quite some time now.

MM's proposal on killing this users forum is a big mistake. This is not how to influence and gain new customers. Nor is it the way to treat current customers. Adam, I urge you and MM to seriously reconsider this decision.


John

Finale 2012/2014 (Well, it's installed.)
M-Audio KeyRig 49
Desktop: Windows 8.1/i5 Core/8 Gig RAM
Laptop: Windows 7/i3 Core/6 Gig RAM

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Ron.
Composer



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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/2/2016 9:18 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been experimenting with Dorico. Without this forum, why should I stay with Finale? It's the best thing Finale has going for it.


Finale 25.1

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Credo
Registered Member

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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 142
 
   Posted 12/2/2016 10:58 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Big mistake!

Having users rely on some third party front end like Facebook (or any other outside 'media merging' service) are:

1. Ultra distracting. I don't want advertisements, junk news links, and political nonsense mixed in with my cozy work den, and as an educator, it's difficult enough keeping students focused as it is!

2. Unsecure. I can convince sysops in educational and professional environments to let these forums through their firewalls. Good luck making that happen for the leading 'social media sites'. People are paid with tax dollars 'to work' with tools that are relative to their job descriptions, not play with adverts and kitten pictures on Face Book! Many states have outright legislative bans on allowing state workstations access to 'social media' sites like Facebook from state owned (schools, universities, etc.) with out all sorts of 'limited special need' permission slips that are an administrative and legal nightmare for everyone involved!

3. Short Sighted. MakeMusic will 'lose control' of what the consumer gets to see mixed in with the content. There will be nothing to stop AVID, Steinberg, Prosounus, or whoever, from buying Ads and plunking it right in the middle of your 'support network'.

4. Unwise. MakeMusic could lose the ability to access, maintain, and control any DATA collected from USERS by relying on so many 'free and external' social media outlets. While they might currently keep a running db and provide tools for locking down the information and data-mining your own pages/wall, they reserve the right to TAKE THAT AWAY at any time! The content will no longer belong to MakeMusic..........and said social media companies might hold your own data for ransom (and even grant your competitors less limited access)!

There are better ways to save money. Think of it like this!

Small towns across the USA once had many millionaires who became so by 'hand selecting' small amounts of choice timber from individuals all over the nation. To deal with the 'by-products' they also made 'pallet factories' in order to make a little extra profit from the 'scrap' cuts of lumber.

A couple of generations later, the youngsters got the idea that the old farts collecting and providing the 'top notch' trees for milling were 'outdated and in the way'.

Thinking 'scrap lumber is cheap', and that 'commercial farms' are the only viable places to go hunt for harvestable trees, they sold their old 'antiquated' saw mills, fired all the founders who knew the real money was in picking the best trees and providing premium board-feet, while accusing them of being archaic, greedy, and short sighted.

Less than 10 years later, they found they no longer had an internal source for scrap wood to make their pallets. So many 'young factories' had joined forces and created a DEMAND for so called 'scrap lumber'. The 'mill scraps' became almost as valuable and expensive as the prime choice board-feet! Lack of affordable raw resources put the majority of such factories OUT OF BUSINESS.

This is SOFTWARE....your number one strategic asset is your KNOWLEDGE and your active user base (who provides a significant chunk of that knowledge). Don't put your primary strategic assets into some third party's hands just because you 'think' it might save a dollar in the short term.

Keep control of your data....and your userbase! You worked hard to build it.....it'd be foolish to give that much POWER over to third parties who can change the rules on you at a moments notice!

As for the link to the 'new in house message board'. It seems like a pretty big step backwards. I can see how it might be a little better for 'mobile devices', but currently the bulk of MM products are NOT mobile-centric. We need 'workstations' to run this stuff, so it would make more sense to keep fully featured, viable, professional looking, and efficent 'workstation-centric' message boards.

Also consider that a massive chuck of the Finale user base does not personally own a 'user key' or get access to a 'product account'. Professors and students who use this stuff in offices and learning labs around the world need to be able to create Forum accounts and seek community help without having a full fledge MM product account. If we educators lose such benefits, there's not much reason left to remain devoted to Finale as the 'training ground' for the next generation of Notation users/creators.

Post Edited (Credo) : 12/2/2016 5:15:11 PM (GMT-6)

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Zoots
Registered Member

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Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 385
 
   Posted 12/2/2016 11:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Overall, I agree with what has been said.

Mike Rosen has listed some obvious major deficiencies in the Zendesk software which may or may not be easily corrected. I get the impression that Zendesk provides the environment and it is not a highly "tailored for customer" product but rather a one-size fits all.

A point that has not been stated in this discussion is that the quality of the forum heavily depends on the participants. Would the Zendesk forum answers be so shallow if all of the members of this forum participated on it?

Being a weak Finale user, I recently found myself Googling some "How Do I" questions and most answers that came up (and frequently were useful) were from the forum in Mike Rosen's link.

My feeling right now is that I would like to hear from MM what they are going to do about fixing the deficiencies in the Zendesk forum. I would also like some assurance that it would indeed be monitored by Finale staff. If these aren't forthcoming immediately, then I think we should move en masse to the one in Mike's link to ensure a critical mass of Finale knowledge from the many years of experience many of you have remains in play.

I do not use Facebook, Twitter or other similar applications.


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

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sandalwood
Registered Member

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Date Joined Feb 2015
Total Posts : 47
 
   Posted 12/2/2016 11:45 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I humbly think this forum is a significant part of what Finale as a working tool is worth. It is a soothing reassurance that any problem encountered while using Finale, regardless of how elementary, general or advanced, specific it is, will be provided with the best available solution. When no solution yet exists it is able to provide an almost equally valuable clarification in defining and mapping the problem and on where we currently stand as to solving it.

Also a great source on notation issues and an invaluable bulletin on similar programs, DAWs, etc. ...and a great feeling of a community formed over the years with civilized, expert people on board. Terminating this forum would certainly not help me stay with Finale.

Please reconsider your decision.


Finale 2014.5, Notion 5, GPO5, Miroslav Philharmonik
W10, i7

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jange
Registered Member

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Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 53
 
   Posted 12/2/2016 12:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just to make sure that everybody got it right:

- they are not deleting this forum, so all threads will still be there -> they are just locking it, so no new threads can be added
- they are not removing every Finale forum -> they are just changing their main platform, so you don't need to change to Facebook, Finaleforum, etc.

If this is change cannot be undone, it would make sense to make it as easy as possible for everybody and to emphasize on the positive aspects of the change. Losing features and knowledge (or making it more difficult to retrieve old knowledge) is not acceptable if it could be solved easily.

Some suggestions to MakeMusic:
- migrate the old dotNetBB forum to Zendesk (i.e. migrate all messages to the new system), so that we only need to search in one forum and that everybody can find his own (old) contributions, username, profile photo, etc. in the new system
- also migrate the old helpdesk to Zendesk, so that we have still access to our old technical requests (I regularly looked into my old helpdesk entries looking for the solution - now they are all gone...)
- add missing features to Zendesk (with its API you can adjust the system)
- improve the design! It looks very overloaded and clumsy
- don't forget the social aspect in forums: names, number of posts, post history, profile info, communicating with other users are very important aspects in forums and building a long-lasting community. If everything is lost and has to be rebuilt, you will lose many active users.
- simply make it a pleasant change ... if it looks and feels good, everybody will participate in it.

Finally, what is the advantage of the new Zendesk system ?
MakeMusic can have all customer relations in one database, so for example all technical requests and forum entries are connected with the same account.

Jan


Elbsound.studio

Post Edited (jange) : 12/2/2016 10:39:04 AM (GMT-6)

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