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Cefran
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   Posted 1/7/2011 1:54 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I just can't get the Breath Mark articulation to work. Any ideas that don't require jumping through a lot of hoops?
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Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 1/7/2011 3:44 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What version of Finale?

What have you tried to do? What happened, and what did not happen that you expected.

The breath mark symbol is not in the default set of articulations, but you can create it using the character in Maestro (No. 133: Ö).


Finale 2011b, 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.5
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 1/7/2011 9:01 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Are you referring to the check mark that Wiggy described, or the comma, which is in the default set?

Bill


Finale 2011b (all versions since 1.0)
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Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 1/7/2011 9:23 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, I'm assuming that a comma marking (included) is more indicative of a hiatus, whereas a tick mark (not included) is "merely" an indication of a breath.

(In my experience, conductors always specify where they want and don't want breaths, often with no regard to whatever is printed in the score!)


Finale 2011b, 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.5
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 1/7/2011 9:54 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy,

In my choral writing I've gotten into he habit of notating all breaths with rests (except in something like a hymn). It saves a lot of time in rehearsal. I agree that a comma indicates a bit of time added, but I rarely use it because it means different things to different people.

I'm often in rehearsals where a ridiculous amount of time is spent going through a piece and indicating every breath, especially when the process finally comes to an end and someone asks, "Can you go through that again? I was texting."

Bill


Finale 2011b (all versions since 1.0)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil
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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 1/7/2011 10:37 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Both the comma and the railroad tracks are in articulations, and they both work for me in F2011.



Mike Rosen
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WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
Bass for What's Cookin' www.whatscookinvlq.com
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b
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Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996



"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Flint
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   Posted 1/7/2011 10:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
Both the comma and the railroad tracks are in articulations, and they both work for me in F2011.
For me as well. The default metatools are B (breath mark) and C (caesura).


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 1/7/2011 11:16 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ooh. Just had to look up the caesura mark, which I've never seen used in all my thirty-five years of singing. Again, it does seem to indicate more of a stop-start rather than a mere breath.

I agree with Bill that breaths are often pencilled in by adding a rest and altering the note, though a tick is the usual shorthand where the subdivision is self-evident. I wouldn't alter the intended note value in an edition, though, because conductors always want something else.

What I really object to is music like Howells where a quaver is added to a semibreve, seemingly only to stop you knocking off early. Pretty much every conductor says "remove all the quavers and put it on the beat" at the start of the rehearsal.

But I digress.


Finale 2011b, 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.5
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
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Post Edited (Wiggy) : 1/7/2011 9:32:17 AM (GMT-6)

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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 1/7/2011 11:30 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What you describe in Howells I see in lots of English music. Presumably the tied note is where one is supposed to put a final consonant, but in the U.S. at least it always brings up the question of whether one should cut off on the tied note or hold it full length. Someone always holds on too long. It never fails.

Bill


Finale 2011b (all versions since 1.0)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil
OS 10.6.6

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Flint
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   Posted 1/7/2011 11:35 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy, in jazz circles, it's common to simply add a numerical indicator of when to cut off. For instance, if you have a minim tied to a quaver, the copyist might add an expression "-3" above the quaver, indicating that the note is to be released on beat 3. Elegant and easy to understand, though I don't think it has much acceptance outside of jazz.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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Cefran
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   Posted 1/7/2011 4:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry about the confusion. I was assuming that everyone thought I was referring to the "comma" (#36) in Articulations. I'm still using F2007. I know it's time to update, but I can't afford the $170 right now. I've tried everything except using the "shape shifter" in Expressions. Somewhere there has to be a way that's relatively simple for me to make it work in playback.
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David Ward
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   Posted 1/7/2011 4:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've often used the up-bow mark (articulation metatool U) to indicate a breath point in a vocal line both in my MS days and more recently in Finale: it seems to be understood.


David Ward
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migman
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   Posted 1/7/2011 5:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I took up flute just for fun years ago (I didn't stay with it), and I remember the comma was used for breath marks in the elementary music I was studying. Is it different for vocal music than instrumental? I don't remember any rests that appeared to be breath marks.


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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 1/7/2011 5:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In the music that I sing, both the comma and the caesura are accepted. Getting the sopranos to pay attention to them, though...



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
Bass for What's Cookin' www.whatscookinvlq.com
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996



"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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tbmartin
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   Posted 1/7/2011 6:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've only seen the comma used as a breath mark in vocal score, with the caesura reserved for a major break in the music. Certainly the singers will breath during a caesura, but in my experience, that's not the primary reason for the caesura being there. I see the heirarchy as comma-breath = very short pause or "a seam in the fabric" or a "vocal change of bow" as my choir director liked to say. Caesura = a bigger pause, and G.P. (grand pause) a huge break. Of course, your mileage may vary.

The "Check mark" I've never seen printed at all, but it's often hand written as singers mark their music, and generally understood if the score is then used by another singer. David Ward's use of the Up-Bow articulation is certainly a creative way to actually put this in a score.

And to Mike's point, I agree: All bet are off with the sopranos. ;-)
 


Terence
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Using Finale 2003a, Windows XP Pro and Vista

Post Edited (tbmartin) : 1/7/2011 4:06:29 PM (GMT-6)

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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 1/7/2011 6:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We've had fun here but I think what Cephran wants to do is have the comma change playback.

Cephran, if you select the comma in the grid and click "Edit" is there a box for Playback Effect? If so, change the duration to 50%. If not, you'll have to wait until you upgrade.

Now, back to trashing our fellow choir members.

Bill


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Staff Paper and #2 Pencil
OS 10.6.6

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Flint
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   Posted 1/7/2011 6:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bill Stevens said...

Now, back to trashing our fellow choir members.
Did you hear the one about the tenor so stupid, even the other tenors noticed? ;-)


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 1/7/2011 6:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I just tried it in PrintMusic2006, with HP set to standard, and the comma and caesura both work. So it must be something in the OP's setup in 2007.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
Bass for What's Cookin' www.whatscookinvlq.com
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996



"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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tbmartin
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   Posted 1/10/2011 9:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I use the comma-breath mark all the time in instrumental music, and it does affect playback by shortening the note by 50%, so I echo Mike's conclusion: must be something in the setup.

BTW, Mike, in your signature file does "Bass for What's Cookin'" refer to a low voice to sing about dinner, or a fish that IS dinner?


Terence
Saxophone Quartet Arranger
Using Finale 2003a, Windows XP Pro and Vista

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jim dukey
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   Posted 1/10/2011 11:20 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I too use the Comma for breaths, and in Finale, the position in the measure affects playback, so I put it as near the end of the measure as possible. Earlier (more to the left) causes too big a gap in the sound.


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