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MRuckles
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   Posted 10/10/2011 10:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello all -
I've been waiting patiently for Finale 2012 to be released like many of you. I just logged in to upgrade from 2011 to 2012 and was SHOCKED to discover that it would cost me a total of $130.60. (Past upgrades have always been $99, after a promo code.) Then I thought my eyes were deceiving me when I saw that I would NOT receive a physical installation DVD. I'm paying for a download only!! You have to pay an ADDITIONAL $10 (+ $10 Shipping) to get the physical installation DVD and quick reference guide THAT HAS ALWAYS COME WITH THE UPGRADE.
My total to upgrade from 2011 would be $152.33. I say "would be" because there is NO way I would ever consider paying $152.33 for a consecutive upgrade. Never. Particularly when the only real advantage to Finale 2012 is the new score manager.
Wow. I've been a hard-core Finale proponent, but I'm seriously entertaining some Sibelius thoughts at this point. Customers who loyally upgrade every year should not be screwed like this.
Mike
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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 10/10/2011 11:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Total upgrade price in the USA is $120. Is there some kind of tax that is being applied? What country are you in? Of course, you started this price questioning before the upgrade even came out...

forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=293328&g=296661#m296661

IMO, Finale is worth every penny - but that's just me.


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2011; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

OS X 10.5.8; Dual 2.0 PPC; 4GB RAM; for VI hosting.

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Scott Hirsch (Coach)
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   Posted 10/10/2011 11:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike,

First of all, thank you for being a loyal user of Finale over the years.

Second, I can understand our frustrations with the price of the upgrade to 2012; however, in most people's opinions, there are many other reasons to upgrade other than just Score Manager. Much work has went into the development of 2012, and this can be seen in the later release of the product than normal. Since the Program is available as a download now, the file can be saved to a CD for later use or installation, Quick Reference guides are available as PDFs, and the Help files are all included as HTML help files from within the program. Due to this, there is no NEED to create DVDs en mass like we used to. This availability as a download hopefully leads to a lower cost of creating the DVDs, and immediate availability so that users can begin using the new features they just purchased. The physical Finale DVD is now a luxury, but we feel it is still important to offer this to customers who would like one. I will pass along our concerns to Support and have someone reach out to you. Can you PM me your email on your makeMusic account?

I would encourage you to try out the demo for 30 days and see if there are any other enhancements to Finale that will interest you. Feel free to let us know if there are any questions you have, and we would be happy to help in any way we can.


Scott Hirsch
MakeMusic Forum Assistance
-------------------------------------------
MacBook 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 4GB RAM OS X 10.7
Finale 2005-2012
Sibelius 2-6.2
Kontakt 3.5
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.5.2
Zero-G Nostalgia
Garritan Personal Orchestra

These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our technical support staff, please contact them directly at makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask.

Post Edited (Scott H. MakeMusic) : 10/10/2011 11:44:48 PM (GMT-5)

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JustinP
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   Posted 10/10/2011 11:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Mike,

I'm sorry you ran into some sticker shock. Traditionally we have ran an initial promotional pricing when Finale has been released, but this year we're trying things a bit differently and not running a promotion right away (the $119.95 is the standard upgrade price from other years).

With the download version that most users prefer, the disk and printed Quick Reference Guide are offered separately for $10 plus shipping if people want them.

I'll definitely pass along your comments, and again I'm sorry the price was a bit of a shock for you.


Justin Phillips
Notation Product Specialist
MakeMusic, Inc.
www.finalemusic.com/forum


These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our technical support staff, please contact them directly at makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask.

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 10/11/2011 12:09 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I hadn't even realized that the Quick Reference Guide was available for download. Thanks!

The 'other' Mike... ;)


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2011; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

OS X 10.5.8; Dual 2.0 PPC; 4GB RAM; for VI hosting.

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Scott Hirsch (Coach)
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   Posted 10/11/2011 12:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michael Mortilla said...
I hadn't even realized that the Quick Reference Guide was available for download. Thanks!

The 'other' Mike... ;)


Here is the link to download the Quick Reference Guides:
www.finalemusic.com/Support/QuickReference.aspx


Scott Hirsch
MakeMusic Forum Assistance
-------------------------------------------
MacBook 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 4GB RAM OS X 10.7
Finale 2005-2012
Sibelius 2-6.2
Kontakt 3.5
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.5.2
Zero-G Nostalgia
Garritan Personal Orchestra

These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our technical support staff, please contact them directly at makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask.

Post Edited (Scott H. MakeMusic) : 10/10/2011 11:43:52 PM (GMT-5)

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 10/11/2011 12:27 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Too late... found it ☺ Thanks for the link. I'm sure others will find it helpful.


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2011; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

OS X 10.5.8; Dual 2.0 PPC; 4GB RAM; for VI hosting.

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 10/11/2011 1:18 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"the file can be saved to a CD for later use or installation,"

I thought the installation was done directly and a backup of the installatin file could not be saved to disk. This sentence seems to contradict what we were told earlier.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012 Soon?
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 10/11/2011 2:00 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
"the file can be saved to a CD for later use or installation,"

I thought the installation was done directly, and a backup of the installation file could not be saved to disk. This sentence seems to contradict what we were told earlier.

Zuill

The report that "the installation was done directly and a backup of the installatin file could not be saved to disk" came from a user in the Windows forum.

The seemingly discrepancy could be a difference between installation in Windows and Mac OS X.

Generally, in Mac OS X you download a so called "disk image" (which you can burn to a DVD if you like).
To install you double-click the disk image, and it mounts on the desktop as if it were an extra drive.
On the mounted "extra drive" you find the installer (for some programs) or the program itself which you can copy to your hard drive (for other programs)

Peter


Mac Finale, 2011c, Dolet 6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.6.8, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

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Zuill
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   Posted 10/11/2011 2:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"The download manager is just an installer which handles the download and then installs it, so it's a bit different than what we've had in the past for the other products like PrintMusic, etc. You won't be able to save the entire thing to a disk since the files are downloaded to a temp location then installed."

This is what I was quoting from Justin Phillips of MakeMusic.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012 Soon?
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 10/11/2011 2:14 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So the bottom line, I suppose, is to buy the installer disk if yu want to have that as a physical backup. $10 ain't so much. :)


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2011; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

OS X 10.5.8; Dual 2.0 PPC; 4GB RAM; for VI hosting.

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Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 10/11/2011 2:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As long as you have a backup strategy that includes the Applications folder, /Library/Application Support, and /Library/Fonts, then you should be able to restore Finale in the event of something going wrong.

Reinstalling should very rarely be necessary. As often said, the application files, fonts and other support files are never written to (the local copies of some of the support files in your user account are), so they should not alter and need reinstalling. 99% of problems with Finale relate to the pesky preference file, font caches, incorrect settings or incompatible third-party software.


Finale 2011c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.8
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 10/11/2011 2:57 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In addition, I would suspect that MM would allow one to download the files again. I still see a link in my account.


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2011; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

OS X 10.5.8; Dual 2.0 PPC; 4GB RAM; for VI hosting.

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Vaughan
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   Posted 10/11/2011 5:23 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
@Justin and Scott: just a question about pricing. I don't mind paying for the upgrade but I'm wondering why I had to pay tax. I'm not living in the US so why should I have to pay an American tax that I basically have nothing to do with?


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2011c, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 5 plugin
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Amsterdam

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JustinP
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   Posted 10/11/2011 5:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We're collecting VAT for a number of countries now.


Justin Phillips
Notation Product Specialist
MakeMusic, Inc.
www.finalemusic.com/forum


These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our technical support staff, please contact them directly at makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask.

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 10/11/2011 10:55 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
@Justin and Scott: just a question about pricing. I don't mind paying for the upgrade but I'm wondering why I had to pay tax. I'm not living in the US so why should I have to pay an American tax that I basically have nothing to do with?


Don't think it is any easier to get items from your country or any other country imported to the USA without having to pay the foreign government induced fees and taxes, hidden or otherwise: that's just the way it works. And don't ever assume that "American" taxes are not part of the price you pay for any software, hardware, or anything else you import. The cost of an item includes the cost of producing and shipping that item and those costs subsequently have taxes that go to the country in question, not just America. Point being: if you are doing business with a business in a foreign country, you have everything to do with it. Again, that's just the way it works. Please don't make it sound so evil or sinister.


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2012; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

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Saffron
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   Posted 10/11/2011 11:04 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michael Mortilla said...
Don't think it is any easier to get items from your country or any other country imported to the USA without having to pay the foreign government induced fees and taxes, hidden or otherwise: that's just the way it works ... Please don't make it sound so evil or sinister.

Aren't you in danger of forgetting the rallying call and iconic slogan of the American Revolution, "No Taxation Without Representation"? !!!

Brian


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Werner
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   Posted 10/11/2011 11:05 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
At least in Europe a company doesn’t pay VAT taxes if you’ve a VAT ID number. For example I would expect to download the software directly from the server of Klemm Music in Germany which seems not possible.


MacPro 2,8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon 3 GB RAM OS 10.5.8, OS 10.6.8
Apple Cinema HD Display 23" Samsung SyncMaster B 2440
LaserWriter 8500,

Finale 1.0-2011b,
Sibelius 3.0-6.0
Adobe CS 5
QuarkXPress 9.0
FontExplorer X Pro 3.0
Susato Music Font

Roland PC-200, MOTU FastLane USB
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trumpetsaj@aol.com
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   Posted 10/12/2011 12:21 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So - I have version 2010 and just checked the upgrade price to 2012. $169.95. I don't particularly find that fair. Skip an upgrade, and you will pay even more - when you finally do the upgrade. So much reducing company costs and making downloads cheaper!

However, to me, the bigger issues are related to the product itself. I've been using Finale since the very first version. There are still major flaws in the program that never get addressed in any of the updates. A few examples:

1. Page layout is a disaster. All the numbers that are generated in the page layout dialogue boxes literally have no meaning. You certainly can't copy and paste them into a new document to get a similar look (which is really important, if you want to update templates when new versions of Finale come out). I haven't yet seen the newest features in 2012, but my Page Layout preference would be to have more manual control over how a score looks (and to be able to copy the settings) rather than being locked into an automatic format.

2. Editing in Finale is still in archaic. Although 2010 is a bit more streamlined, it's still sometimes necessary to go through 2-3 mouse clicks just to actually select a tool (and then do some editing with it).

3. The Time Signature dialog box is nuts. You need to be a rocket scientist to get a 7/8 bar to stem correctly. How about a dialogue box with choices like 2 + 2 + 3 - or something similar. And I'm not really interested in 1/4 + 1/4 + 3/8 as the first option that comes for a 7/8 time signature.

4. You still can't print to an 11x17 book format - other than saving the Finale document as a PDF file and then using Acrobat Pro to generate a book. Last time I checked, most professional parts are printed in book form.

5. When parts are formatted from the score, it's not currently possible to have a text block in just one part.

6. It's not possible automatically to save a new version of a Finale file over the older version of the Finale file (of the same name) without navigating through a series of folders to rename the file. With over 6000 Finale files, that is tedious and time consuming.


I could go on and on about features that I like or dislike in Finale, but I'm actually a strong supporter of Finale. I have produced some great looking scores. My main point would be that I'd prefer that some of the features of Finale that don't work very be fixed - rather than adding more and more features.

My second point would be that the pricing policy for updates should reward long time users.
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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 10/12/2011 12:36 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1. Just open your default document in the new version and resave it there.

2. Never bothered me.

3. Use the context menu. 1 click for what yu want.

4. Don't know anything about that.

5. Not true.

6. I use a PC so I can't comment on how Mac does it. PC can do what you want.

Zuill

P.S.: You can delete your duplicate post if you want. It's easier than using Finale.


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012 Soon?
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 10/12/2011 12:49 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
FWIW, the Sibelius upgrade price is $150 (download or shipped in the USA) and personally I don't think it is as good a program - aside from the fact that you are dealing with the Avid conglomerate which make Make Music look like a Mom and Pop operation. I prefer Mom & Pop stores to Wartmart any day!

Personally, I have always had very productive experiences in Finale in some very demanding conditions since 1996 or so. The 'issues' have been mostly user errors or OS based problems.

As far as #6, I assume you are referring to SAVE AS? Simply hitting SAVE will update the file immediately. If you are referring to Automatic Save, I cannot speak to that as I don't use it in any program. If you select SAVE AS, it is not unusual for many programs to not allow a saved name of a currently open file. Some apps will ask you to confirm, some won't. The ones that don't allow it are actually applying a much safer and more idiot proof method. IMO.

Finally, contrary to your view that you should be able to get a discounted price even after skipping an update, that would be grossly unfair to those who do update regularly. I'm not sure I understand your point there at all.


Os X 10.6.8; 3.2 gHz 8 core; 12GB RAM.

Finale 2012; Digital Performer 7; Plogue Bidule; the usual VI suspects.

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Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 10/12/2011 4:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
trumpetsaj@aol.com said...
1. Page layout is a disaster. All the numbers that are generated in the page layout dialogue boxes literally have no meaning. You certainly can't copy and paste them into a new document to get a similar look (which is really important, if you want to update templates when new versions of Finale come out). I haven't yet seen the newest features in 2012, but my Page Layout preference would be to have more manual control over how a score looks (and to be able to copy the settings) rather than being locked into an automatic format.
I have no problem deriving meaning from the numbers in the Page Layout dialog. They are very clear: page margins, staff height, page reduction; staff margins.
You can save a Library file that includes Page Layout data if you want to copy settings from one file to another. You can create your own Document Style files that appear in the Setup Wizard with any Page Setups you like. You are in no way "locked into an automatic format"; you have complete control over how the score looks.

trumpetsaj@aol.com said...
2. Editing in Finale is still in archaic. Although 2010 is a bit more streamlined, it's still sometimes necessary to go through 2-3 mouse clicks just to actually select a tool (and then do some editing with it).
Firstly, you can do a hell of a lot with just the Selection Tool: change key, clef, time, add repeats, Measure Attributes, etc, etc. In Simple Entry, you can add clef, time, key sig changes and articulations as you go along. Secondly, Try right-clicking on things. Thirdly, double clicking on various elements automatically selects the relevant tool. Finally, use keyboard shortcuts (metatools).

trumpetsaj@aol.com said...
3. The Time Signature dialog box is nuts. You need to be a rocket scientist to get a 7/8 bar to stem correctly. How about a dialogue box with choices like 2 + 2 + 3 - or something similar. And I'm not really interested in 1/4 + 1/4 + 3/8 as the first option that comes for a 7/8 time signature.

As Zuill suggests, right-clicking on a measure gives you what you want. People have a wide range of needs, and the current method is very flexible. I guarantee that if it was made "easier", someone else would complain that they can no longer do what they used to. But if you have a better idea, submit it to MM and try to get support for it here.

trumpetsaj@aol.com said...
4. You still can't print to an 11x17 book format - other than saving the Finale document as a PDF file and then using Acrobat Pro to generate a book. Last time I checked, most professional parts are printed in book form.
Most large format printers have booklet capabilities in their print drivers. Should every app offer its own booklet printing routines, or is this something better handled by the printer that makes the booklet? Perhaps you should complain to your printer manufacturer, rather than MM?

trumpetsaj@aol.com said...
5. When parts are formatted from the score, it's not currently possible to have a text block in just one part.
Enter text in the Score, unselect "Show". Go to the part you want it in, select "show".

trumpetsaj@aol.com said...
6. It's not possible automatically to save a new version of a Finale file over the older version of the Finale file (of the same name) without navigating through a series of folders to rename the file. With over 6000 Finale files, that is tedious and time consuming.
There is a Finalescript to batch process the conversion. "Tedious navigation through folders" should not be necessary: The Save dialogue has a list of "recent folders" that you can select. Dragging a file or folder from the Finder into the window will select that location in the dialog. You can press / to type a filepath, and <tab> will auto-complete each name in the path. You can also start to type the names of items in the current folder and they will be selected from the first distinct letter.
I would also question whether you need to convert them all. Are you going to use all 6000 files before the next version comes out?

trumpetsaj@aol.com said...
I could go on and on about features that I like or dislike in Finale.

Might be worth checking a few things first. smilewinkgrin


Finale 2011c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.8
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Wiggy) : 10/12/2011 4:25:06 AM (GMT-5)

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Peter West
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   Posted 10/12/2011 5:15 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My main grievances about 2011 remain in 2012:
1. since optimisation has been removed, one cannot fit or move a group name on one system without editing all the others. Creating regions for the group is time consuming. This loss of functionality is for me the breaker. I have stayed with 2010 for this reason alone.

2. When can we have text in increments of less than 1 point? Finale clearly can calculate these in the background as it re-sizes in proportion to the staff. This is so archaic it feels like we're still in the 1990s. Many of my clients specify specific sizes "9.4 pt, 10.8pt, 17.5pt." While some people might think this unnecessary, my clients want what they want, and I am tired of asking them to compromise. I can do it in sibelius, but sibelius takes nearly twice as long to complete any large project.


Peter
Music Publishing Services

*********************
Mac 2.66GHz Intel Quad, 4GB RAM /OSX.5.6 /30 inch cinema display+20 inch Cinema Display
Finale 2008 2009 2010/Logic Pro Studio/Komplete/GPO/Kore 2/Max.msp/Pluggo

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Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 10129
 
   Posted 10/12/2011 7:14 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter, I agree with you on fractions on points. Perhaps the Unicode rewrite will make this more likely in the future: perhaps not.

As for the groups: Do you need to alter individual instances of group names often? I haven't investigated this particular issue fully, but I do find the new mechanism for groups easier than before.

One thing I would suggest which makes creating group regions easier: Jari has an excellent plugin which extends the current selection to the next (or previous) double bar, final bar, repeat, measure number, etc. I asked him to make this and I find it invaluable for such things.

What happens to a file with individually altered groups if you open it in 2011 or later? Are the adjustments still there? If so, then all may not be lost.


Finale 2011c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.8
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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Christopher Smith
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Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 1640
 
   Posted 10/12/2011 8:27 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
trumpetsaj@aol.com said...

3. The Time Signature dialog box is nuts. You need to be a rocket scientist to get a 7/8 bar to stem correctly. How about a dialogue box with choices like 2 + 2 + 3 - or something similar. And I'm not really interested in 1/4 + 1/4 + 3/8 as the first option that comes for a 7/8 time signature.


Wiggy addressed the other points, but I think you are missing the Composite dialogue box in the Time Sig tool.

Double click a measure with the Time Sig tool selected.

Click Composite. There's your 2+2+3 dialogue box - put those numbers in the top box and 8 in the bottom box. BTW, this will beam exactly like 1/4 + 1/4 + 3/8 (which I don't see in 2012, but it may have been there in previous versions. I don't understand your objection to it, as it IS pretty common, but you can edit it afterwards if you don't like it.)

Click More Options. Display as 7/8. Or leave it as 2+2+3 over 8 if you prefer.

Done. No rocketry involved.


Christopher Smith

Mac 2 x 2 Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
OSX 10.6
Finale 2011b
or
Mac iBook G4 733 Mhz
OSX 10.4.11
Finale 2010b r.1

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