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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 11:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been struggling with this. First and foremost, what is the best way to notate shuffle sixteenths to make life easy for the performers? My inclination would be to have a direction at the beginning that says "Shuffle Sixteenths" with a picture of 2 barred sixteenths, an = sign, and then an eighth/sixteenth with a --3-- bar over them. (Sorry I can't include a picture, because I can't even figure out how to create it using the Tempo Marks tool.) And then just write sixteenths in the part, much like I would do for swinging eighth notes in a jazz piece. The performers know that idiom, but the sixteenths are less common and I want to be clear.

And then, secondarily, what's the best way to achieve it in playback? I've tried all kinds of combinations of the tempo tool, tempo changes via the expression tool, and the results I get are inconsistent and confusing to say the least.

Post Edited (scholvin) : 11/13/2012 9:36:21 AM (GMT-6)

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 11/13/2012 11:36 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Are you using Finale 2012?


In the Default File for Finale 2012 there is a ready made expression for shuffle eighths (also called "rolled eighths" or "swing eighths").
You can make a duplicate of that expression, and edit it to display shuffle sixteenths.


I don't know why your results are "inconsistent and confusing to say the least".

Normally I use the Tempo Tool to get shuffle sixteenths.
It has always worked for me.

Perhaps we need to see a Finale .mus document to find out what you are doing (or doing wrong).


Peter


Mac Finale, 2011c & 2012c, Dolet 6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.7.5, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 11:41 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am using Finale 2012c.r13. I suppose I should put that into my signature. :-)

I see that shuffle eighths expression, and I have to confess, I cannot figure out how to edit the expression to include 2 barred 16th notes. Using the "Insert note" button, I can get two flagged ones but that looks terrible. And then I cannot figure out how to create a --3-- figure over the subsequent flagged 8th and 16th. I suppose I could create that as a graphic but that seems like overkill and then I'll lose the ability to size it, etc.

As far as the playback goes, I guess I'll tackle that later. It's most important that I deliver parts that look good.
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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 12:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, I kinda figured out how to do this using the OS/X Character Viewer. I can get close enough. And then I suppose I'll want to save this in a Library so I can use it in the other few pieces in this production that need it.

I will take another stab at the notation and playback problems, and post a .mus file if I'm still struggling. Which I expect. :-)


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM

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Zuill
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   Posted 11/13/2012 2:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you are in 4/4 and want shuffle 16ths, one trick is to put the piece in 8/8 to display as 4/4.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Zuill
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   Posted 11/13/2012 2:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

If you do use the 8/8 to look like 4/4, there is an issue with slash notation.

Anyway, here's a sample file.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
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File Attachment :
Shuffle Sixteenths.mus   42KB (application/octet-stream)
This file has been downloaded 38 time(s).
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David Ward
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   Posted 11/13/2012 2:41 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can somebody please translate! What ARE shuffle eighths, sixteenths etc. I understand 'swing' in this context, but not 'shuffle'.

I accept that this is probably just another example of my woeful ignorance of most non-classical music, which I am trying to remedy rather late in the day.


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2010b
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Zuill
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   Posted 11/13/2012 2:54 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Basically the same. Different styles use different names. And the ratio of long to short varies with the style as well.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 6:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, still having problems using the Tempo Tool to affect the swing. I do the following:

1) select the Tempo Tool
2) click the measure where I want it to start. The Tempo Adjustment dialog pops up.
3) I fill in: Unit = 0, Starting Time in Measure = Beat 1, Adjustment = Change By, Measure Region = this measure through End of Piece.
4) I click on Set Swing.... and get the Set Swing Ratio dialog.
5) I fill in: Percent = 200 (that's what is there as default, I leave it) and choose a sixteenth note for the duration, which fills in the value 256. I click OK.
6) Oddly, the Change By value now says 75%.
7) Now, if I click on Set Duration again, it has forgotten what I just put in there, showing a Percent = 200 but Duration is now back to 512.

I can loop through steps 5-7 forever, no change.

If I eventually click OK, unsurprisingly, I get no swing.

Is there a way to see all the Tempo Change objects I have put into the score? Might there be some hiding in there from previous efforts of me fooling with this that are messing me up?

And what is this "Unit 0" business?

I'm completely confused. I can try to post the file, but I will have to first make a copy and strip out all the lyrics since the client has a major issue with confidentiality.

Managing tempo changes, swing, etc. has been my number one source of frustration with Finale. This is way harder and more opaque than it needs to be. :-(


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM

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Zuill
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   Posted 11/13/2012 6:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why not forget the Tempo Tool for this. For setting tempos, it is useful. It is unpredictable for swing. Why not just use an expression? It is so simple.

ZUill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 6:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I will GLADLY forget the tempo tool

But which expression? I've tried the "Swing Sixteenth" one (with the note, not the word) and it seems to swing the eighth notes.

I feel like an idiot asking these questions.


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM

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Zuill
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   Posted 11/13/2012 6:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If my file didn't swing the 16th for you, then let's find one that will. Maybe you have a file we can experiment with.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 6:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's what's killing me. Yours works fine. But I can't make it work in my piece.

I will strip this thing down to get all the confidential content out of it and post it later.


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM

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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 7:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
All right, here is a stripped down version.

I need:
straight 16th notes from the beginning to rehearsal mark B,
swinging 16ths from B to E,
straight 16th from E to G,
swinging 16ths from G to the end.

Any help would be appreciated. I really am trying to understand how this application works. I've been a software and music professional for a long time, and I swear I've never been this confused about anything, ever.


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM



File Attachment :
stripped.mus   70KB (application/octet-stream)
This file has been downloaded 26 time(s).
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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 11/13/2012 7:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let's start here.
 
Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"



File Attachment :
stripped Revised.mus   71KB (application/octet-stream)
This file has been downloaded 30 time(s).
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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 7:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is magic. Thank you.

Can you explain, briefly, how you accomplished this? It sounds like you doubled the tempo somehow, based on the playback clicks.


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM

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Zuill
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   Posted 11/13/2012 7:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's the 8/8 to look like 4/4. That is the way you get the 16th swing. I was testing with spacebar-click, so I didn't hear the clicks. I guess this won't work for you as you want quarter clicks. Oh well. I tried.

By the way, the expression for swing playback wasn't set to activate swing. I set that as well.

I guess, if this doesn't work for you, you'll have to continue to fidget with the Tempo Tool. Good luck.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 7:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I figured it out: changing the time signature under the covers to 8/8 and doubling the tempo though still displaying as 4/4.

It also looks like in the Expression definition, you set the Type to Swing, but unchecked the Match Playback box, and then Set to Value = 40, which I assume is 25% of the tempo?

Can you confirm that the last bit there is what made the swing? I don't quite understand how, yet, but I'd like to know exactly how this worked.

Thank you so much for all your help so far.

EDIT - we cross-posted. I don't actually care about the clicks or, at this point, the weird bars on the eighth notes.


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 11/13/2012 8:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The tempo didn't really double. Your click just doubled by playing the 8ths instead of the quarters.

I chose 40 by sound (what sounded good to my ear). You can choose any swing value you want.

I didn't take the time to check or fix any beaming. That can easily be fixed with Rebeam to Time Signature, and choose 4/4.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 9:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank you, Zuill. You have been so incredibly helpful and patient.

One last question: that sort of swing expression + 8/8 change trick should work across all staves, right? I had been working with the vocal track (the one I stripped out and uploaded) solo'ed and the playback is fine. But when I unmute the other staves, they are still playing straight sixteenths, even while that one is shuffling. I assume there is something simple I have to do, or I have entered into some kind of twilight zone, or maybe a bug?

EDIT: just for fun, I switched over to the Part view for one of those lower staves and played it. It plays with the proper rhythm there, just not when it's part of the Score View.


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM

Post Edited (scholvin) : 11/13/2012 7:27:08 PM (GMT-6)

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 11/13/2012 9:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Exactly. We were jsut talking about this "bug" in another thread a few days ago. The fix is simple:

Go into the Expression Tool. Go to Edit Catagories, and pick the Tempo Mark category, in which these items are. You need to edit the score list. By default, List 1 is selected. Doing this edit should not affect the parts, as the default is to have the top staff show in parts anyway. Just select one of the Parts assignments and put an x there. By doing this, from my experience, now all the staves will swing. Interesting and enexpected behavior.

If this fix does not work, please let us know.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 9:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That got it. Thank you so much.

This may be stepping over my skis a little bit, but what's the best way to request a feature? Seems that there ought to be a "swing 16ths" expression that just works in the expected way.


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 11/13/2012 10:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It has been discussed here for years, and I know MakeMusic is aware of the desire. It seems to me there would be a way to do it, but they have, I guess, resigned themselves to the fact that some of us have discovered workarounds, so they will let that go in exchange for other feature developments. I can't say. You should file a support case with a request, so they get one more vote for it.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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scholvin
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   Posted 11/13/2012 10:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Will do. And I'll add another one for a keyboard shortcut to switch to the eraser tool while in simple note entry while I'm at it. ;)

thanks again for everything.


Finale 2012c.r13, Mac OS/X 10.6.8, Mac Pro w/2x2.66GHz quad-core Xeons & 8GB RAM

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