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KitFernuel
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   Posted 12/21/2016 11:02 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have searched this forum for comparisons between these two music-scanning programs. Unfortunately, those I've found are dated (2010 +/- 2 years). Is there anyone out there that has done (or would do) more than casual comparison of these two technologies employing at least a semblance of scientific method? Both programs have evolved significantly since those precambrian days.

NOTE: This is not a discussion about why MakeMusic had to drop SSLite from Finale v25. That's another topic altogether.
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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/22/2016 1:16 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As Zoots suggested on the Windows side, the demos will probably be the best way for you to decide.



Mike Rosen
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Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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John Iafrate
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   Posted 12/22/2016 2:27 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I use both because sometimes one works better than the other, but I go to Photoscore first.


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Finale 2012c Finale 25.1
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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/22/2016 3:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
SmartScore Pro wasn't that good. SS X2 Pro is a significant improvement. I've never used the other.

I rarely have need for it anymore. When I do, I export to MusicXML. It supports 3.0 same as Finale which means that lyrics and expressions generally export correctly.

The scanning instructions are way out of date for the Mac and assume OS 10.5. TWAIN drivers, HP compatibility etc.-- ignore it as none of it applies. Likewise, scanning from within the app crashes it--so don't.

Use Image Capture.app to scan and you're fine -- it's part of the OS in your Applications folder.

SmartScore X2 Pro imports .pdf files, something that SS Lite cannot.

SS Lite was crap as far as I'm concerned. It's so bad that most must think what I did, "How much better can the paid version be?"

Quite a bit better, it turns out.

What's your time worth?


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
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Zoots
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   Posted 12/22/2016 10:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I had posted the following in Musitek's SmartScore forum:

Musitek does discuss the lack of Apple TWAIN support and using Image Capture in Scanning Notes under Support on its site:

http://www.musitek.com/scanningnotes.html

The program documentation should reflect this but it seems only to be updated with each major new release.

I'm a Windows user and I use the VueScan option listed at the bottom of the MAC Scanning Notes item because driver support for my Epson was dropped in latest OS versions. Since it works fine with Apple Image Capture there would be no need to spend the $50.


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/24/2016 10:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zoots said...
I had posted the following in Musitek's SmartScore forum:

Musitek does discuss the lack of Apple TWAIN support and using Image Capture in Scanning Notes under Support on its site:

http://www.musitek.com/scanningnotes.html

The program documentation should reflect this but it seems only to be updated with each major new release.

...

If X2 was a major new release (and it ertainly was), then no, the documentation wasn't. It is a major flaw in what is actually a pretty good program.

The web site is also out of date. It doesn't list the current version on the downloads/upgrades page. Fortunately, you do get it on download.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/25/2016 11:19 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I note that since 13 December, Musitek have had a new SmartScore app on the Mac App Store for $99.

/itunes.apple.com/gb/app/smartscore-music-to-xml-music/id1175482722


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/25/2016 12:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That looks to me like all it does is the Lite treatment: recognize the scan, and convert to XML. No opportunity to edit, which, IMHO, is the best (only) reason to get the pro version. And, assuming they stay with the half-price offer to Finale owners, it would only cost an additional $100 to go from this Smartscore to XML, to the full version.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Motet
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   Posted 12/25/2016 1:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
...opportunity to edit, which, IMHO, is the best (only) reason to get the pro version...

So the recognition itself is no better in the pro version than the lite version?


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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/25/2016 2:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't think so (assuming the engine is the same in both.) The real value of the pro version is in the editing, and the opportunity to exclude lyrics, etc.

However, I have posted the question on the SSP forum.



Mike Rosen
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Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/25/2016 2:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Mike Rosen said...
...opportunity to edit, which, IMHO, is the best (only) reason to get the pro version...

So the recognition itself is no better in the pro version than the lite version?


SS Pro was better than SS Lite but that wasn't saying much, frankly. I forget in what OS it stopped working forcing me to update to X2.

SS X2 Pro, on the other hand, is a major improvement over the old Pro. You make far fewer corrections and it handles handwritten to some degree (no miracles) as well as lyrics and a much greater range of expressions. Lite, by comparison, is crapware.

If the new version from the App Store is as good as X2 Pro, that will be great. No editing? Just do it in Finale. Being able to capture .pdf and export as MusicXML 3.0 is the big feature of SS X2 Pro. Yes, you can use it as a notation program but, really, who does? The App Store version has dropped that functionality—not many will miss it.

Image Capture.app is an excellent scan tool for the Mac. I worked with Apple on it after they broke it in OS 10.6 and really made a mess of it in 10.7 and 10.8. Since 10.8.2, it is excellent and even supports wireless scanning (if your scanner does, of course). It's part of the OS and is in yourbApplications folder.

I will not try the App Store version. I already have X2 Pro so it would be a waste of $99 for me to find out if this is just as good. I'm not that curious, you know?


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/25/2016 3:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When I say Pro, I mean the X2, the latest version. Sorry for any confusion! I'll try to remember to get it right in future!

Some things are much, much easier to edit in SS X2. Missed notes, barlines, and tuplets come right to the top. Correcting duration errors is much quicker, too, especially since they highlight. The double window eliminates the score-to-screen back and forth proofreading. (Wait a minute. Which measure was I looking at?) As I get better at using it, it becomes even more invaluable.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/25/2016 5:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's a comparison chart but it doesn't mention the new app:
www.musitek.com/compare.html

The upgrades page doesn't mention that you can go from SS Lite to X2 Pro for $199. Find that here:
www.musitek.com/store/SSFinUp.html

Neither does it mention that there is a price for Finale owners who don't have a version of SS Lite—I saw it somewhere.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/25/2016 6:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anybody who has Finale prior to F25 will have SS Lite. It's built in. That's what the offer to Finale owners, is.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/25/2016 9:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Comparison between SS Lite and X2 Pro:

www.musitek.com/SSLiteUpgrade.html


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 12/26/2016 4:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
Anybody who has Finale prior to F25 will have SS Lite. It's built in. That's what the offer to Finale owners, is.

But Finale 25 was planned to include an improved version. Hence the blog post showing off its capabilities, and the sudden backtrack.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
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Zoots
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   Posted 12/26/2016 10:49 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MikeHalloran said...
Here's a comparison chart but it doesn't mention the new app:
www.musitek.com/compare.html

The upgrades page doesn't mention that you can go from SS Lite to X2 Pro for $199. Find that here:
www.musitek.com/store/SSFinUp.html

Neither does it mention that there is a price for Finale owners who don't have a version of SS Lite—I saw it somewhere.


I knew I saw it somewhere just the other day so I looked around. It's on Finale's site, not Musitek's, and not exactly front and center.

https://store.makemusic.com/Store/default.aspx?tab=relatedproducts


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

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Zoots
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   Posted 12/26/2016 11:01 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
When I say Pro, I mean the X2, the latest version. Sorry for any confusion! I'll try to remember to get it right in future!

Some things are much, much easier to edit in SS X2. Missed notes, barlines, and tuplets come right to the top. Correcting duration errors is much quicker, too, especially since they highlight. The double window eliminates the score-to-screen back and forth proofreading. (Wait a minute. Which measure was I looking at?) As I get better at using it, it becomes even more invaluable.


I totally agree with Mike about the editing. I had assumed that my misery in trying to fix some things in Finale was totally due to SS being the devil I knew but he has confirmed my opinion (several times) that Finale is better for fresh entry and SS is optimized for handling scans.


Finale 2012c
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Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/26/2016 2:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zoots said...
MikeHalloran said...
Here's a comparison chart but it doesn't mention the new app:
www.musitek.com/compare.html

The upgrades page doesn't mention that you can go from SS Lite to X2 Pro for $199. Find that here:
www.musitek.com/store/SSFinUp.html

Neither does it mention that there is a price for Finale owners who don't have a version of SS Lite—I saw it somewhere.


I knew I saw it somewhere just the other day so I looked around. It's on Finale's site, not Musitek's, and not exactly front and center.

https://store.makemusic.com/Store/default.aspx?tab=relatedproducts
Here's the link:
/store.makemusic.com/Store/default.aspx?tab=relatedproducts


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/26/2016 2:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Wiggy said...
Mike Rosen said...
Anybody who has Finale prior to F25 will have SS Lite. It's built in. That's what the offer to Finale owners, is.

But Finale 25 was planned to include an improved version. Hence the blog post showing off its capabilities, and the sudden backtrack.

I'm going to guess that the new SS App was to have been included in 25. It makes sense and matches the description from the blog. There would have been direct import as before and that is now gone but MusicXML export/import is just one more step.

There would still be an upgrade path to X2 Pro for those wanting to edit before export, of course. I don't believe that Musitek would want to cut off that revenu stream.

Again, I have no inside knowledge here but it all makes sense.

It would have been nice if MM had included it as promised instead of turning chicken the way they did. To those of us who already have X2, it would have added nothing—no different than before. For the rest, it means coughing up $99 to regain the functionality.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

Post Edited (MikeHalloran) : 12/26/2016 12:41:08 PM (GMT-6)

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/26/2016 3:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But you can still do it in 2014.5, and then move it to 2015. So, it really only affects brand new purchasers. And for that, MM deserves a big thumbs down.

And, knowing what I know, if I needed to scan music, I would certainly spend the $200, before pissing away the $99.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 12/26/2016 3:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Mike,

I respect your opinion on using the editor within SS Pro X2.  You obviously have taken the time to learn the interface.  I have not.  I think it is easier for me to export the unedited music recognition results to MusicXML and import that into Finale.  It is easier for me to edit the errors out using the familiar interface of Finale, rather than to have to learn the SS Pro X2 editor, which is unfamiliar to a Finale user.

Just my 2¢.


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/26/2016 4:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As long as it works for you, and doesn't cause you to join the "scanning doesn't work" crowd, go for it!

But if you did take the time, I suspect you would be even happier!



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/26/2016 5:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm in the 'spend the $199' camp but then, I did it a few years ago. The other choice in 2012 was SS Lite and I've made my opinion of that clear.

I'm not sure if I would feel the same coming into it fresh or if I'd spend the $99 instead. I don't know how much of the additional functionality I really use but I suspect that it's not that much.

I should qualify this by adding that most of what I scan in does so cleanly and is generally PD, say from the Mozart complete works or something similar. If I know that I'll have to make extensive changes, I'm likely to forgo scanning and enter the basic chart from scratch.

There's an ideal candidate for pushing the limits of X2 Pro in my To Do list. I was going to enter it from scratch but will scan instead and see how far I get.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
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