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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 12/28/2016 3:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>My annoyance was and is aimed at the app and the developers of the app

I'm afraid neither the develolpers nor the app itself are likely reading here. I suggest you file problem reports. If you've done that, there's not much else you can do.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/28/2016 2:19:33 PM (GMT-6)

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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/28/2016 6:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
I'm afraid neither the develolpers nor the app itself are likely reading here. I suggest you file problem reports. If you've done that, there's not much else you can do.


And really to me that is the biggest issue by far. You send files, you call, you send steps to recreate a bug and nothing happens far too often. It got old long ago.

To tag on to Writer of Music, can someone explain to me why "Staff Lists" are still available for repeats? I remember having a phone meeting with several programmers illustrating my issues with what they termed the new "Expression Paradigm".* At the time, I was told Staff Lists would be disappearing from repeats very soon. It has been how many years now? Does it matter? Not to me, but for a new user having multiple ways to assign certain items can be seriously confusing.

*My favorite answer to one of my questions was "We were not aware people use the program this way."

Being tone deaf to your base is nothing new and really it won't change until the base expects much more from MakeMusic. Why would MakeMusic change if we keep forking out money for them?

But again, I am not unhappy with Finale but KNOW it can be so much better. So much better!!

I do very much worry that when this forum is locked the little feedback MakeMusic actually cared to read and address will be gone entirely.

Enough from me. I have a job and no more time...


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
[email protected]
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/28/2016 6:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
I'm afraid neither the develolpers nor the app itself are likely reading here. I suggest you file problem reports. If you've done that, there's not much else you can do.


I did report a number of these annoyances to MakeMusic without any result. That's why I reported them here and asked all of you why these annoyances remain in Finale.
So, is there not much else to do? Yes, there is. Inspire other users to also report the problem. Only when more people report them, MakeMusic might take action, eventually.

May I ask why it is so much more acceptable to some of you to false delude MakeMusic and pretend that all is peachy than to complain about what is identifiably and demonstrably wrong with the app?


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Post Edited (Writer of Music) : 12/28/2016 4:30:33 PM (GMT-6)

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 12/29/2016 1:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the thing to do is inundate them with reports until they get it. Otherwise, they are rather complacent, it seems.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/29/2016 5:27 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Absolutely, but it is of no use when all the reports come from one person only. And that's why I hoped to rally some fellow users here to also start reporting these issues to MakeMusic.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/29/2016 10:13 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been reporting things regularly with varying success. MM does try, but the 'scope for future updates' has become a bit of a catch phrase which has lost practical meaning. Now that I've been using Dorico for more than a month, I realise how many actions I perform in Finale are actually workarounds or simple drudgery which should no longer be required. I'm amazed at what this new version 1 program is already able to accomplish and to what extent the emphasis of its makers is placed on getting the program to understand what it is you're trying to do. That's a different and, actually, a more natural and desirable mindset when working in a program than just trying to find a way of getting a program to do something, especially by trickery. I wonder how many of us realise how much time and effort we're actually wasting. It's an arduous task to develop an intelligent program like Dorico but the team working on it takes it most seriously and if anyone is up to the task, they are. Just as important, they take user input very seriously and practically all questions and comments get constructive reactions. I'm afraid this stands in stark contrast to MM's replacing this forum with a seriously inferior one, as well as phasing out telephone support. On the eve of the new year (and the demise of this forum), I really don't believe all this bodes well for MM. I'll keep using Finale as long as possible but I'm convinced that Dorico represents the future.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/29/2016 11:23 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
Absolutely, but it is of no use when all the reports come from one person only. And that's why I hoped to rally some fellow users here to also start reporting these issues to MakeMusic.

You do your fellow forum users here a disservice, if you think that no one but you reports bugs.

If you want Finale to improve then I agree that constructive criticism and helpful reporting are essential. Many of the problems you've fulminated against here are intermittent or not universal, which makes tracking their cause difficult without lots of data. I don't have the "double-clicking" problems that you mention, so I can't report them.

However, none of your posts on the subject of bugs appeared to be exhortations to others to get involved, but just ranting -- and that's probably why everyone finds them tedious.

You might even apply to join the beta-testers, where problems in new versions can hopefully be picked up early enough to be fixed before release, and where suggested improvements can be most readily adopted.

I would suggest that most users here are certainly pragmatic and sanguine, but far from complacent, and most are keen to provide feedback to MM if it helps to improve the product.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Dr. Wiggy) : 12/29/2016 9:37:06 AM (GMT-6)

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 12/29/2016 1:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But I'm not speaking about bugs here, Dr. Wiggy and I'm not 'ranting' or 'fulminating' against anything. I'm speaking about the inconsistencies and incongruences in the application, the way it doesn't act as an application written for the Mac OS should act.

This thread has nothing to do with my other threads, why do you wish to involve the other threads into this discussion? Isn't this or shouldn't this at least be a discussion about the topic at hand, not about me or how some of you choose to perceive my personality? Then why are some of you so keen on always dragging me back into the discussion?

Isn't being pragmatic perhaps the underlying problem in the first place? Aren't many of us used to work our way around problems for over decades now, since we knew that Coda and later MakeMusic weren't going to offer a solution any time soon?
When I point out that the editing of text (to use that example once more) is not the same between 'Edit Text' dialogs, no one can say that it's not a problem on their setup. Finale is programmed with that flaw, so the flaw is present on everyone's setup.
Try this: go to the score manager, select any instrument or group and click the Full Name or Abrr. Name button. Now select the name and press cmd-+. The instrument or group name will increase in point size. Fine, that's what should be happening (as it works in Text Edit also). However, in the Text menu it says that the keyboard shortcut for increasing the point size of the text is shft-cmd-period, but that one doesn't anything in some Edit Text dialogs (the shortcut works, however, e.g. in the Expression Designer).
Then now go back to the score, select the Staff tool, select Staff>Group and Brackets>Edit…. You'll be presented with the same Edit Text dialog, but now try to increase the point size of the group name with the same key combo. All you'll get is a system beep. However, when you'll look under Text>Size, you'll see the menu items Increase and Decrease with some keyboard shortcuts active, only the shortcuts are not working.
The keyboard shortcut shift-cmd-period actually only works in text editing frames and nowhere else, but that aside.
There are many more similar flaws in Finale.

No one can deny that this is as inconsistent as it can possibly get, but since many of us have learned to live with it over the years, decades, it doesn't bother you or at least less than it bothers me. How, though, is a new user to know how to work these dialogs? When will an editing window work as one expects and when should I use other keyboard shortcuts than the application says are to be used?
Unfortunately, I haven't saved MakeMusics answer when I showed them this (and more inconsistencies), but their answer was something along the lines of "they are different text editing windows and that's why they behave differently". Bollocks, the text editing dialogs invoked from the Score Manager and through the Staff menu are the same dialogs, but they behave differently, which is unacceptable. Even if they were different dialogs, shouldn't they behave the same or at least similarly at any rate, or wouldn't it at the very least advisable to have them work similarly? And that's why I report them to MakeMusic to no avail and next report them here with hardly any result other than insults and personal attacks.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Post Edited (Writer of Music) : 12/29/2016 11:33:48 AM (GMT-6)

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Zoots
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   Posted 12/29/2016 1:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have no doubt he is not the only one reporting buts but OTOH a lot of people see somebody else experiencing the same bug and assume it is reported and take no further action.

Even if it is reported, there is something to be said for anybody having a genuine problem to report it especially since we don't have any evidence that MM over-reacts to a bug report and it does tell the company that there is indeed a widespread problem rather than just somebody with a peculiar computer setup or finger-trouble - pushing the wrong buttons. Most support organizations run on a "no news is good news" basis.


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/29/2016 6:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zoots said...
Most support organizations run on a "no news is good news" basis.


If MM uses this method, with people going to different forums they should be celebrating not just good but amazing news!!

Wiggy - I don't find them tedious, but rather reality that far too many do not want to acknowledge. We all must work together to make a better Finale, but MM has to be part of it or we all lose. Right now, MM's choice of eliminating this Forum is one way for use all to lose.


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
[email protected]
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 12/31/2016 9:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
Motet said...
I'm afraid neither the develolpers nor the app itself are likely reading here. I suggest you file problem reports. If you've done that, there's not much else you can do.


May I ask why it is so much more acceptable to some of you to false delude MakeMusic and pretend that all is peachy than to complain about what is identifiably and demonstrably wrong with the app?

You assume facts not in evidence.

I don't understand why you think that, if you are having a particular problem, everyone else is. Why should we? Are we runnning the same plugins, loading the same libraries? Using the same preferences? Without knowing your setup (especially since you never mention it), I can assure you we're not. Don't assume you speak for all of us. You don't.

When I have a tech issue, I howl at the moon—MM support in this case—until it is addressed. I only bring it up here if the solution helps others.

BTW, I have had very few issues in 25 and the bugs that affected me have all been fixed.

My big issue now is that the online Help files are hideously slow and inaccurate. I want a searchable.pdf file. Perhaps MM will understandmthat a decent manual would cost them less than the current system that clogs their phone lines but, until that day, I call if I can't find what I need. Generally when I can't find it, the reason is because it's not there and the files get updated a little later.

I only call in on my issues. Yours don't concern me.


Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

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Writer of Music
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   Posted 1/1/2017 11:14 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MikeHalloran said...

You assume facts not in evidence.

I don't understand why you think that, if you are having a particular problem, everyone else is.


Because, mr. Halloran, the app is written with the same code for you as for me. That's why these annoyances are the same for you as for me and everyone else. Once again, for all who are evidently not willing to read carefully but are all too eager to be judgmental, I'm not speaking about bugs here, but about the sloppy way Finale for Mac has been written.


Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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jim dukey
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   Posted 1/1/2017 5:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Maybe you need to go 10.12.2.
Or wait for the next Full Moon.


Molecular Computer, Powered by Fusion in a Jar. Finale 3000, Wireless ESP Module, No Physical Interface, Printed Parts Manifest by The Universe,
SOOOO Boring! Now Everybody is Friggin' Mozart.

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