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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/23/2016 9:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear MakeMusic,

Please allow users to add their own control points to slurs in the next version of Finale. This one capability would be worth more to me than any other change you could make.

Thank you.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/23/2016 10:33 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I could see the possibility of adding an additional slur option to the palette - I'll call it a "Flat Slur". It would have an additional control point allowing you to produce a slur where the mid section of the span is truly flat. Others have asked for this and it has often been used in traditional plate engraved music and pen and ink autography.

As I see it, adding control points to a slur a la Illustrator would require a lot, lot of changes to the interface. The current Smart Shapes are "hard wired". There would have to be an Illustrator-like interface to make each shape "live" and individually editable.

What kind of problems are you running into? I've never had difficulty producing slurs that were not at least "passable".

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/23/2016 12:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for your comments, N.

http://notat.io/viewtopic.php?t=207 contains an example of a slur that cannot be accomplished at all in Finale, but is now possible in LilyPond.

This is an extreme case, but I am now encountering more ordinary cases of very long slurs where I need greater control over the tips of the slur:

http://notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=258

If Finale wants to keep up with rising standards, it will need to be able to produce slurs of ANY shape.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/23/2016 12:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...
Dear MakeMusic,

Have you actually submitted this as a request? I'd be surprised if anyone from MM was looking at this forum now.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/23/2016 3:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...
This is an extreme case, but I am now encountering more ordinary cases of very long slurs where I need greater control over the tips of the slur:


If you want more "hook" or as Finale calls it "inset", use the second control point from the left, or the right. You can see on the graphic that I had to drag it quite a ways to the left.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls


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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/23/2016 4:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
FWIW, Dorico can already do this, as well.


Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 12/23/2016 5:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...
Dear MakeMusic,

Please allow users to add their own control points to slurs in the next version of Finale. This one capability would be worth more to me than any other change you could make.

Thank you.


I have been urging for this since several years back. I am not sure what is their priority.




Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/24/2016 8:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, N. I can usually get what I want with your approach, but in this case I want less hook at the end of the slur, but more bend a bit before the end to avoid high notes. The two requirements seems to be in opposition. At least, I can't get what I want after quite a bit of work, but I'll keep trying; maybe I can get closer.

The more general problem is that with so few fixed control points, one is constantly compromising. If Finale wants to remain at the top, it will need to improve in this area. Vaughan mentions that Dorico can already do this, something that Finale has not been willing to take on in all these years.

It is inexplicable to me why such a natural improvement to the software was not introduced years ago. Back in 2000, an engraver who had called MM on numerous occasions to request it, contacted me after I started a thread about it. It was my first post (apparently no longer available in the archive), and it will now be my last.

I believe I also posted on the subject at Finaleforum around the same time. See you all over there and at Notat.io, and maybe at Dorico as well!


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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Wess
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   Posted 12/30/2016 4:02 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Using flat ties (or more often slurs) definitely improves the layout.
However, I would not insist MM to concentrate on this instead of fixing the speed and responsiveness of the graphical processing.

IMHO specially prepared font for such needs would be one of the best solutions.
Flat ties are usually just one space high. So there are only 10 glyphs to create them (2 for left and 2 for right *2 fro each directions + 2 dashes).
Applying them form smart shape palette with double click using meta tool works instantly and solves all issues.

Here are two kind of them – with very pronounced arc and with smooth ramp (if this is the word in English).
I think that the second one works better in most situations for and particularly for larger distances between notes.



... result as PDF preview


Finale 2014 and earlier...
________________________________________
iMac 27" (late 2013) i7-3.50GHz, Nvidia 775 2GB, 24 GB RAM, 1 TB Fusion drive. Mavericks 10.9.2
External A+B: 1TB SSD Samsung EVO 840 + 4 TB WD Black (Thunderbolt/USB3 enclosure)
External C: 2TB WD via FireWire800 (Thunderbolt-FireWire 800 adapter)
Second monitor: HP LP2475w (Thunderbolt-HDMI cable)

Macbook pro 17" (2009) 2.80 GHz, RAM 8 GB, 500GB SSD Samsung EVO 840

MIDI: hybride piano
YAMAHA Avant Grand N1

CUSTOM MUSC FONTS & SAMPLES – VintageGHMA (Henle) & VintageECP1 (Peter's)

Post Edited (Wess) : 12/30/2016 2:09:09 AM (GMT-6)

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/30/2016 8:20 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks Wess, that is an intriguing solution for flatish ties and slurs that I will explore, but I am more interested in the slurs of irregular shapes that are impossible to create in Finale.

For my uses, basic things that are now impossible in Finale take precedence over things that need improvement or refinement, like speed. But speed is not an issue for me. I understand that it might be for others, however.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/30/2016 10:51 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wess, would you consider selling your flat tie font?

I think I understand how you would set these up in the Smart Shape Tool - [Start of Tie Text Left - Repeated Continuation of Flat Segment - Finish of Tie Text Right]. The only variable would be a given user's tie thickness settings, and this could be accommodated with a range of various thicknesses for the font characters.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls

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Christopher Smith
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   Posted 12/30/2016 7:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wess, that is astonishing. Your ability to get the best out of Finale never fails to amaze me.


Christopher Smith

Mac Mini (Late 2014) 2.8 Ghz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM
OSX Yosemite 10.10.5
Finale 2014.5 and V. 25
or
Macbook Pro (Retina, 13 inch, early 2015) 2.7 Ghz Intel Core i5, 8 GB RAM
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Finale 2014.5 and V. 25

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/31/2016 6:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree wholeheartedly, Christopher Smith. Wess's solutions to all matters of engraving issues are unsurpassed, and I have gained so much from him, for which I am very grateful.

Thank you again, Wess, for all of your help and inspiration!


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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