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garaden
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 4

Posted 11/5/2009 1:23 PM (GMT -5)

I'm a Bb trumpet player writing out parts for my section, and I've noticed a problem while I'm doing entry. While playing back pitches (i.e. pressing "Play" in either Concert display or Bb display), the pitches are correct either way. However, if I do entry while in Bb the pitches are played back as if I was entering in Concert pitch (i.e. a step too high), while if I do entry in Concert pitch the pitches are correct! As a musician, this is irritating enough to me that I'm considering transposing in my head and writing in Concert pitch because otherwise it's too frustrating. I know you can turn it off, but I do want the feedback. I just want correct feedback!

Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087

Posted 11/5/2009 2:14 PM (GMT -5)

This is a long-standing issue, which MM doesn't seem motivated to fix. Nothing you can do about it.

Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

Scott H. MakeMusic
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 508

Posted 11/5/2009 2:25 PM (GMT -5)

Sorry this is frustrating. As Motet said, this is a long-standing request/issue. The best thing to do would be to submit a request to Finale Technical Support so that this can be logged. This also makes it possible to track how often this is being requested. I can certainly help with this submissiong if you would like. Just send me a PM and let me know if you need any assistance.

Here is information on submitting a request to Tech Support:
http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/156

Scott Hirsch
MakeMusic Forum Assistance
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iMac 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 4GB RAM OS X 10.5.7
MacBook 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 4GB RAM OS X 10.6
Finale 2005-2010

Sibelius 2-6.1
Kontakt 2,3
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.5.1
Zero-G Nostalgia
Garritan Personal Orchestra

Philip.
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 866

Posted 11/5/2009 3:12 PM (GMT -5)

Sibelius handles this nicely, FYI, and even gives you the option of entering the sounding pitch or the written pitch, depending on how you think. In either case the note feedback is correct (sounding pitch). If MM co-opted this, there would be much rejoicing.

Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010a
Mac 10.5.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
10 GB RAM

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garaden
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 4

Posted 11/6/2009 12:30 AM (GMT -5)

Wow... are you implying this issue is present in full Finale?!? No wonder Finale has a bad reputation with my friends... if I were a Finale developer I'd be ashamed of myself for permitting this issue to persist. If they gave me their source code and an NDA I'd probably be able to fix it within a 40-hr work-week. On the surface at least it seems like a trivial fix, especially considering that non-entry playback works fine.

Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087

Posted 11/6/2009 1:51 AM (GMT -5)

Is this the case in QWERTY entry as well as MIDI? You'll notice when you're entering music with MIDI you're hearing "MIDI thru," the MIDI signals just passing through Finale. To implement the transposed sounds, this concept would have to change.

Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

garaden
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 4

Posted 11/6/2009 1:59 AM (GMT -5)

QWERTY's what I'm talking about. I don't have any MIDI devices, I just use Finale either for rewriting arrangements that are hard to read or writing down stuff I've heard.

Philip.
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 866

Posted 11/6/2009 9:33 AM (GMT -5)

Motet said...
Is this the case in QWERTY entry as well as MIDI? You'll notice when you're entering music with MIDI you're hearing "MIDI thru," the MIDI signals just passing through Finale. To implement the transposed sounds, this concept would have to change.

FWIW, Sibelius handles this just fine whether using QWERTY or MIDI input, the note feedback is always at sounding pitch, whether the staff is transposing or not.

Finale is smart enough to switch channels to give you the correct sound on note entry; it should be smart enough to give you the correct transposition as well.

Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010a
Mac 10.5.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
10 GB RAM

Saffron
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2598

Posted 11/6/2009 12:05 PM (GMT -5)

This is one of those utter imponderables that makes me wonder what calibre of person is actually steering Finale development.

Brian

Scott H. MakeMusic
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 508

Posted 11/6/2009 2:55 PM (GMT -5)

The best thing to do would be to submit a request to Finale Technical Support so that this can be logged. This also makes it possible to track how often this is being requested. I can certainly help with this submission if you would like. Just send me a PM and let me know if you need any assistance.Here is information on submitting a request to Tech Support: http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/156

When MakeMusic tries to validate certain issue, they are going to want to see who is talking about it, who is complaining by sending in a case, etc. They don’t count forum posts as their sole source of data. If this is an issue that you feel needs to be addressed (which I can certainly understand) you need to submit a case about this so that it can be tracked and logged. With that done, issues are reviewed with the management and development team and if additional details are necessary, they’re able to be retrieved with all of the accompanying data.

If a particular issue doesn’t get resolved, it is not due to inability or unwillingness of the development team. Fixes need to be prioritized, impemented and tested - this comes down to money, time, and exposure. This is consistent with nearly all software companies.

If 1,000 different people submited cases by tomorrow with this issue, this would gain a lot more traction :). So - with that being said, please submit a case if you have not already. I would be happy to assist with this process if anyone needs assistance.

Thanks!

Sibelius 2-6.1
Kontakt 2,3
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.5.1
Zero-G Nostalgia
Garritan Personal Orchestra

garaden
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 4

Posted 11/6/2009 3:00 PM (GMT -5)

It's the "long-standing" issue that gets me. But I guess most people that buy full versions use MIDI most of the time anyway. Anyway, I put in a support request.

Scott H. MakeMusic
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 508

Posted 11/6/2009 3:06 PM (GMT -5)

garaden said...
It's the "long-standing" issue that gets me. But I guess most people that buy full versions use MIDI most of the time anyway. Anyway, I put in a support request.

Thanks, Garaden. Let me know if you need any assistance with this process, or if something is not working. I am happy to help. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Have a good one!

Sibelius 2-6.1
Kontakt 2,3
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.5.1
Zero-G Nostalgia
Garritan Personal Orchestra

Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087

Posted 11/6/2009 4:44 PM (GMT -5)

Scott H. MakeMusic said...

They don’t count forum posts as their sole source of data.

I suspect they don't count them at all. This has been discussed so many times here, and submitted with the annual wish list that people here go to great effort to compile and submit. That appears to be a waste of time.

I submitted a bug report (on a different issue) a week or so ago, by the way, and never heard a peep. So I just checked, it appears to have vanished into the void, as it isn't listed in "My Support Cases."

Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

Philip.
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 866

Posted 11/6/2009 5:28 PM (GMT -5)

garaden said...
It's the "long-standing" issue that gets me. But I guess most people that buy full versions use MIDI most of the time anyway. Anyway, I put in a support request.

For the record, Finale behaves the same on transposing instruments (that is to say, incorrectly) whether you are inputting via MIDI or QWERTY keyboard. So this affects all users who desire correct feedback of notes at sounding pitch.

Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010a
Mac 10.5.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
10 GB RAM

Philip.
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 866

Posted 11/6/2009 5:42 PM (GMT -5)

Scott, it would be nice, as the liaison from MM to the forum community, if you could convey the wishes of the forum users in at least equal force to those who submit bug reports. In many cases the forum users represent highly skilled people who take great time to test a problem, and post solutions, workarounds, and, yes, futility such as in this case.

Forcing us to then go through a whole other process to submit bug reports, seems to us, rather foolish and a waste of our time. Several times (like today with the newly introduced expression bug in linked parts in 2010a) I have concurrent forum and support requests open.

It would seem to me better for everyone if you or someone that deals with bug reports directly would count forum postings in deciding development priorities. Forum users would benefit by having their concerns taken seriously without having to submit a case every time. MM would benefit by learning what has and hasn't already been tried by the forum users and solving solutions more quickly.

You say your process is like all software companies, but in the case of your main competitor, Sibelius, the product manager (Daniel) is very active on the user forums, and if a bug or feature request comes up on the forum, it is considered reported. He does not make anyone fill out a redundant feature request form. If MM were to implement a similar policy, it would make a lot of us very happy and quite possibly result in a better Finale product. Thanks for considering this.

Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010a
Mac 10.5.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
10 GB RAM

Scott H. MakeMusic
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 508

Posted 11/6/2009 6:54 PM (GMT -5)

Motet said...

Scott H. MakeMusic said...

They don’t count forum posts as their sole source of data.

I will definitely send this to support and see why this has not been replied to. I am sorry that no one has gotten back to you.

Philip said...

I am not a full-time internal employee of MakeMusic any longer, therefore I do not have access to the internal system of reporting bugs, otherwise I would be happy to do so for you - Nor do I have access to your internal profile information (like I did when I worked there full time) unless you give it to me in a PM so that I can submit a case for you. [i]Case submission has been the process for MakeMusic customers to submit issues with the program for a long time now. If there is an issue where no one is getting back to you, then I want to take care of it and pass that along so we can rectify that.[/i]

I still cannot stress enough the basic process of submitting a case when you come across an issue with the program - and I remember most of you doing so when I could see them come in. It is far easier to track and follow, and these numbers that we get from pulling these reports are crucial when sending to management for review.

I do appreciate your opinions though, Philip. Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to submit cases for what you are finding as well.

Sibelius 2-6.1
Kontakt 2,3
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.5.1
Zero-G Nostalgia
Garritan Personal Orchestra

Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087

Posted 11/6/2009 7:30 PM (GMT -5)

I have resubmitted my bug report. Perhaps there was an Internet problem before.

Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

Justin Phillips
Notation Product Specialist

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 117

Posted 11/6/2009 7:54 PM (GMT -5)

Hi all,

My name is Justin Phillips and I am the Notation Product Specialist with Customer Support at MakeMusic, Inc.

Per forum policy, the MakeMusic forum is a place for users to discuss their experiences with MakeMusic products and to interact with other users. While we do frequently monitor the forum, the best way for an issue or problem to be brought to our immediate attention would be though the Support Case system. We certainly do not ignore problems that are reported on the forum, and Scott (including myself and the rest of the moderation team) are here to address any concerns.

We do ask that users submit a support case to us when a problem arises so our Customer Support staff can properly replicate and diagnose issues so they can be reported to our development team. The software we use to interact with customers allows us to run a number of reports on specific issues (number of contacts, etc) so we can quantify a specific problem. These numbers are presented regularly to development and senior management.

Scott's current role on the forum is to be an active community member assisting with Finale related issues and directing users to the appropriate places for assistance if their questions are not answered or addressed. He does frequently pass information on to Customer Support so we are made aware of problems reported by the community.

As Scott said, we certainly appreciate everyone's options on this matter. The goal here is to continue making great software, and we always welcome feedback.

If there are any questions or concerns about this policy, please feel free to private message me.

-Justin

Justin Phillips

MakeMusic, Inc.

Notation Product Specialist

These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our technical support staff, please contact them directly at http://support.makemusic.com/.

Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087

Posted 11/6/2009 9:53 PM (GMT -5)

OK, I've submitted a Case about the transposition-entry-pitch problem as well.

Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

Philip.
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 866

Posted 11/7/2009 1:49 PM (GMT -5)

Dear Scott and Justin,

Thanks very much for your replies. I did not realize that Scott was no longer an employee of MM, so thanks for clarifying.

I suppose I cannot speak for everyone, but I would certainly welcome a more official presence on the forum. Again, comparing to the Sibelius forum, Daniel is the senior product manager and contributes nearly every day to many topics there. Because he is very directly involved in the development of Sibelius, he can easily provide help, or authoritatively say that a certain issue is bug or that a feature request is already on their wish list. I am sure the forum activity allows him and his team to keep his finger on the pulse of all of the issues, and not just the ones submitted to tech support.

The Finale forum is always the first place I turn to report a problem, because I am likely to get a faster and more accurate reply than from Tech Support, especially on weekends or after hours. Often, by the time an issue is resolved on the forum, I don't have time to write it up all over again for tech support.

To me it seems redundant, after dozens of people have contributed to a forum thread, to request that they then all individually submit separate requests to Tech Support, for their voices to be "officially" heard. It seems inefficient both for MM which has to process and respond to all those requests, and for users, who have to take the time to fill out a Tech Support form after already contributing to the forum.

Please consider that cases submitted to tech support represent only a portion of the actual issues being raised. I hope you could consider more fully integrating the forum activity into the quantitative data you collect from the tech support system, because the forums represent a mine of valuable data.

Thanks again for considering this.

Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010a
Mac 10.5.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
10 GB RAM

Justin Phillips
Notation Product Specialist

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 117

Posted 11/7/2009 6:17 PM (GMT -5)

Hi Philip,

We in no way ignore these reports on the forum. Scott is a part-time MakeMusic employee who spends a good amount of time on the forum keeping track of things. He regularly notifies myself of possible issues and helps users get in contact with technical support if problems start getting a bit beyond basic troubleshooting. I am an active reader on the forum, and as you have seen will step in when needed to make myself available for extra assistance.

It is important to have our technical support staff verify the exact steps with the user to reproduce the problem, and although it may seem redundant, there are some troubleshooting steps we do follow so we can ensure that we are getting the absolute best information on an issue so that can be sent to our development team (such as problem files, diagnostic reports, etc). Beyond that, we can collect hard numbers about a problem (for both cases submitted and call logs from phone support) so we can present this to the appropriate departments. It is important to know if 1 or 1,000 people encounter a problem, and it is much more time consuming to accurately track this via the forum and get the information to development as soon as possible.

It is great to see we have such a passionate user base, and as I said before the goal is to continue making the best notation software possible.

Hope everyone has a great weekend,

-Justin

Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087

Posted 11/9/2009 3:18 PM (GMT -5)

Dear Justin,

I submitted the problem report and received this reply:

Customer Support said...

Currently the Display In Concert Pitch is the only tool available in Finale for hearing the correct pitch when entering notes.

Please feel free to respond to this case if you have any further questions about this issue.

I will repond and beg for the feature in the future, but this feels like, "Sorry, that's the way it works. Have a nice day!" Is there a better way of submitting suggestions that Customer Support won't try to dismiss?

Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

Motet
ø¤º°”°º¤ø

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 3087

Posted 11/9/2009 5:47 PM (GMT -5)

...Followed through with Support, which promises to submit the suggestion.

Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 6553

Posted 11/9/2009 6:46 PM (GMT -5)

There's a difference between a bug on someone's system, and a program-wide feature failure. The former should be handled by MM tech support, since they can try to duplicate the setup, and see if the problem is hardware, software, or wetware. In these cases, yes, a bug report is the way to go.

But in this transposition issue, it's not a bug. We agree that the program is working correctly; it's just doing the wrong thing. THIS is the sort of developmental situation that should be noticed and addressed by people like Justin, Mark, and Scott. You've even been told that your major competitor has it right. We need (and deserve) more than the answer that Motet received.

Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

WebMaster for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
NEW SITE www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

Justin Phillips
Notation Product Specialist

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 117

Posted 11/9/2009 6:49 PM (GMT -5)

Hi Motet,

We do not dismiss that. Generally when we run across something that cannot be done/could work better with the software via the case system, we'll create a feature request for it and log it so the developers can review it. We have done so now with your request.

Hope you have a great week,

Justin

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