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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Eb Bass (brass) in setup wizard... | Forum Quick Jump
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Keith B
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 7/18/2012 4:40 PM (GMT -6) |   | Sorry I didn't reply to your question earlier about transposition up or down. It's a bit more complicated than just 9 up or 3 down relative to concert pitch. There are two types of Eb bass. Three pistons or four (or "palettes" - keys like on a french horn - I don't know their name in english.)
The fourth piston or palette gives about a fifth more compass at the bottom of the range and for this instrument I would take a C bass line and transpose it 3 down. This would give a concert pitch Eb (***) as a low C - two lines below the bass clef.
The lowest note really available on a three piston instrument is a low Bb in concert pitch (a fifth above the first example ***) and this would be written as the low G on the bass clef - so 9 up.
When writing for students the transposition will depend on the individual capacity to use the lower range on a four piston instrument, though this is off the point...
All the best
Keith | | Back to Top | |
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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
| Posted 7/18/2012 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | |
Keith B said...
Sorry I didn't reply to your question earlier about transposition up or down. It's a bit more complicated than just 9 up or 3 down relative to concert pitch. There are two types of Eb bass. Three pistons or four (or "palettes" - keys like on a french horn - I don't know their name in english.)
The fourth piston or palette gives about a fifth more compass at the bottom of the range and for this instrument I would take a C bass line and transpose it 3 down. This would give a concert pitch Eb (***) as a low C - two lines below the bass clef.
The lowest note really available on a three piston instrument is a low Bb in concert pitch (a fifth above the first example ***) and this would be written as the low G on the bass clef - so 9 up.
When writing for students the transposition will depend on the individual capacity to use the lower range on a four piston instrument, though this is off the point...
All the best
Keith I'm sorry, but none of that makes any sense. The determining factor in the pitch and therefore the transposition (whether bass or treble clef) of a tuba is not the number of valves, but rather the length of the tubing ("open" - ie. no valves depressed), which in turn determines the fundamental pitch of the lowest natural harmonic. In the case of an Eb Tuba, which has an open tube length of around 13' this would be a "concert" Eb, 4 leger lines below the bass stave. This fundamental pitch is not changed by the presence or absence of a 4th valve, so why should the transposition change?
Gareth J. Green
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KennethKen
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Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 2570
| Posted 7/18/2012 5:29 PM (GMT -6) | | | |
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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
| Posted 7/18/2012 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | |
World in Concert said...I know that in the US, anything notated in the Bass Clef is not transposed, and that this is not the case in Europe.
... UK excepted, as far as I am aware.
Gareth J. Green
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"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)
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Charles Lawrence
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638
| Posted 7/18/2012 8:02 PM (GMT -6) | | | I thought Keith was interested in having an Eb Tuba added to the instrument list available in the Startup Wizard and/or ScoreManager. That's what his original post requested. While it is true you can add this instrument to a document/template, there is no way I know of short of tweaking the instrument database to add it to the list of instruments. I have done that. I asked for the answers to a few questions, and since I have gotten no response from Keith yet, I took it on my own to tweak the database as per these answers:
1) What is the clef? bass or treble, or do you want both (2 instruments)
bass clef only
2) What is the transposition to be applied? I chose (Eb) up M6, add 3#s
correct
3) Where in the list of instruments do you want it to show? The easiest is at the bottom, but it can be moved to be, say next to the existing tuba (more work involved)
shows up after the tuba and/or bass tuba
4) In what instrument filters do you want it to show? For experimenting, I chose Marching Band/Brass (All/Brass is included by default). You many want others, like Orchestra/Brass (more work involved)
"Orchestra/Brass" and "Concert Band/Brass" and "Marching Band/Brass" - "All/Brass" by default
5) What is the placement order in the score? The easiest is at the bottom of the score, but you might want it next to any tubas in there (more work involved)
placed just after tuba and/or bass tuba in "Orchestra" and "Concert Band" and "Marching Band" score orders
6) What are the note ranges for the notes-out-of-range function? There can up up to four expertise levels: Off, Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced. Each level needs a high and low note range specified.
not being familiar with the Eb tuba, this has been deferred until I get ranges from someone who knows
The tweaks I have done work without crashing Finale. I do not know as of yet how to specify the Device/Sound that shows in the ScoreManager. It always shows as SoftSynth/Grand Piano, even with "Play Finale through VST" chosen. All the original instruments show as correct as possible. There must be a way of setting this, but I have not found it in the database. The ScoreManager allows you to change them to whatever you want.
This might be classified as an extraordinary mod, since MM does not document this, nor, I suspect, did they ever expect a user to go in and tweak the database. It can be done, though. I am still waiting on the "final answers". I can post the modified database file when finished, provided anybody wants it, like Keith. Hopefully by doing so I won't be violating any rules. Of course, no warranty of any kind is expressed or implied. You are on your own, but it seems to work OK so far with no crashes.
Are there other instruments somebody wants added. There are 787 in all now! Seems like a gracious plenty, but who knows.
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Keith B
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 7/19/2012 2:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Many thanks Charles. I'm really sorry I didn't see that post - I was in bed... I only read it this morning - morning here in France...
I'd be very interested in having the new database you've made and particularly interested in having more details on how you made it. As you have probably gathered from my posts, the Eb Bass is not the only weird transposing instrument I have to write for.
The position of the Eb bass is normally below the trombones and above the C bass/Tuba but the position is not really important since it's so easy to reposition the instrument in Score Manager.
I'm very impressed by the technical knowhow involved and also the fact that you understood and kept to my first question.
I'll try it out first on an old laptop I use for Finale when I'm away from home. Should you prefer to send the file direct: keith@kb-muse.com
As for the rather insulting post of Mr. Green "I'm sorry, but none of that makes any sense." who is perhaps applying his motto "An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." I prefer to ignore his remarks. I would just invite him to try to play the intervening notes between the low Bb and the low Eb on a three piston Bass - it's impossible. (Note that I have always referred to this instrument as an Eb Bass - not an Eb tuba. If I understand rightly it is an instrument more or less confined to european marching bands.) I agree that the transposition is nearly always 9 up partly in order to keep the notes on the stave of the mini-scores used by marching bands. I did stress that if I bend the rules and sometimes transpose down, it's to meet the needs of an individual student. I often have to play from a score on which the whole piece is transposed both up and down so all the notes are there an octave apart...
As you have gathered writing bass parts is quite a complicated business as you all saw from Jetcopy's post. he often has to provide:
Bb Trombone in treble and bass clefs
Bb Euphonium in Bass Clef
Bb Tuba in treble and bass clefs
Eb Tuba in treble and bass clefs
...we have to cover a great variety of needs in Europe.
Once again, many thanks Charles - I'm full of admiration!
Keith | | Back to Top | |
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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
| Posted 7/19/2012 2:54 AM (GMT -6) | |
Keith B said...
As for the rather insulting post of Mr. Green "I'm sorry, but none of that makes any sense." who is perhaps applying his motto "An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." I prefer to ignore his remarks. I would just invite him to try to play the intervening notes between the low Bb and the low Eb on a three piston Bass - it's impossible. Nothing insulting about it. I'm well aware that there is a range of unplayable notes between the first "open" harmonic and the lowest 2nd harmonic on a three-valve tuba, but that should have no bearing on the actual transposition of the instrument. I'm beginning to see that you are apparently talking not about instrument transposition, but about re-voicing parts into different octaves for purposes of playability. And for some reason you want this to be reflected in the transposition set-up of the instrument itself in your score. This really doesn't make sense to me.
And if you want to take offence where non is intended, I can't help that.
Gareth J. Green
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"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)
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Keith B
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 7/19/2012 3:39 AM (GMT -6) | | In fact if you re-read my first question I never raised the question of voicing or transposition. Other people have raised the question of transposing up or down which in reality have nothing to do with my first post though they have given rise to interesting discussions.
Transposed scores for bass instruments in the bass clef are rare in any case and as I said in my last post I fully agree that the norm is upward transposition of 9 semitones - M6 - for Eb bass instruments. My comments about upward or downwards transposition are limited to the optimum use of the three piston Eb bass with its lowest usable note as a low G (as written).
These remarks were simply in relation to the questions of transposition raised. In no way do I wish to have them " reflected in the transposition set-up of the instrument itself in your score" as you say.
If you say that your remarks are not insulting, I have to believe you. I think that most of us would agree that it's going a bit far to claim that I want to do something which I never even envisaged and then say that "it doesn't make any sense" to you:
"...you are apparently talking not about instrument transposition, but about re-voicing parts into different octaves for purposes of playability. And for some reason you want this to be reflected in the transposition set-up of the instrument itself in your score. This really doesn't make sense to me. "
Please let us keep to the subject. Charles has put together the perfect answer to my question. | | Back to Top | |
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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
| Posted 7/19/2012 4:11 AM (GMT -6) | |
Keith B said...
My comments about upward or downwards transposition are limited to the optimum use of the three piston Eb bass with its lowest usable note as a low G (as written).
These remarks were simply in relation to the questions of transposition raised. In no way do I wish to have them " reflected in the transposition set-up of the instrument itself in your score" as you say.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was your answer to a question from Charles concerning the transposition set-up of the instrument. You said ...
... It's a bit more complicated than just 9 up or 3 down relative to concert pitch. There are two types of Eb bass. Three pistons or four (or "palettes" - keys like on a french horn - I don't know their name in english.)
The fourth piston or palette gives about a fifth more compass at the bottom of the range and for this instrument I would take a C bass line and transpose it 3 down. This would give a concert pitch Eb (***) as a low C - two lines below the bass clef.
The lowest note really available on a three piston instrument is a low Bb in concert pitch (a fifth above the first example ***) and this would be written as the low G on the bass clef - so 9 up.
.
I may have misunderstood, but you appear to me quite clearly to be saying that the transposition of an Eb Bass should vary according to the number of valves, even though the physical tube length and therefore the fundamental pitch is the same?
I'm not going to continue going round in circles on this; unless I've misunderstood, you think this is acceptable, whereas I believe it is wholly wrong, and flies in the face of all established principles of transposing instrument notation, which are based on the fundamental physical pitch of the instrument and its relationship to concert pitch middle 'C'. (Then again, transposing bass clef parts also contradict this principle  .. )
Clearly we will have to agree to disagree. I don't intend to post again.
Gareth J. Green
Fin2012a, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Stolichnaya Blue
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)
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Charles Lawrence
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638
| Posted 7/19/2012 9:38 AM (GMT -6) | | | No problem Keith. I was just anxious to see if my experiment would work, so I went ahead and assumed the answers to what I needed.
So that there is no misunderstanding, let me verify what I need to finish.
1) What is the clef? bass or treble, or do you want both (2 instruments)
bass clef only you want only the bass clef
2) What is the transposition to be applied? I chose (Eb) up M6, add 3#s
correct this transposition is correct
3) Where in the list of instruments do you want it to show? The easiest is at the bottom, but it can be moved to be, say next to the existing tuba (more work involved)
shows up after the tuba and/or bass tuba should be between trombones and tuba
4) In what instrument filters do you want it to show? For experimenting, I chose Marching Band/Brass (All/Brass is included by default). You many want others, like Orchestra/Brass (more work involved)
"Orchestra/Brass" and "Concert Band/Brass" and "Marching Band/Brass" - "All/Brass" by default please specify what you know is best, maybe leaving out "Marching Band", I don't know
5) What is the placement order in the score? The easiest is at the bottom of the score, but you might want it next to any tubas in there (more work involved)
placed just after tuba and/or bass tuba should be between trombones and tuba in "Orchestra" and "Concert Band" and "Marching Band" score orders, maybe leaving out "Marching Band" according to 4)
6) What are the note ranges for the notes-out-of-range function? There can up up to four expertise levels: Off, Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced. Each level needs a high and low note range specified.
not being familiar with the Eb tuba, this has been deferred until I get ranges from someone who knows please specify top and bottom notes for the various player experience levels, you have only specified the lowest note to be a G (is that 1st line G) presumably for the advanced level player
Again, I am going to proceed as much as I can knowing 1), 2), and 3). I am going to assume on 4) and 5) that this instrument is typically not found in a marching band. The answer to 6) is not critical and can be set easily at any time, just give me a typical range for the various experience levels. I will also change the name of the instrument to Eb Bass instead of Eb Tuba. Please detail 4), 5), and 6) ASAP.
Stay tuned.
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ttw
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2005
Total Posts : 776
| Posted 7/19/2012 11:19 PM (GMT -6) | |
BopEuph said...At the risk of hijacking Charles' thread a bit more, I just learned that Don Quixote has a Bb tenor tuba part, written in bass clef a M2 higher. It even goes into treble clef, only a M2 higher still, which would throw me off completely as a euphonium player: http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/6/6d/IMSLP18787-PMLP04977-Strauss_-_Don_Quixote__Op._35__orch._score_.pdf This is what happens when your instrument is usually reserved to playing in bands and solo works. You rarely get to do this kind of stuff.
Only in Quixotic works?
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KennethKen
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 2570
| Posted 7/21/2012 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | |
ttw said...
BopEuph said...
At the risk of hijacking Charles' thread a bit more, I just learned that Don Quixote has a Bb tenor tuba part, written in bass clef a M2 higher. It even goes into treble clef, only a M2 higher still, which would throw me off completely as a euphonium player:
You will find this for all of Strauss tone poems that include euphonium. Many players try to find the concert pitched engraving to play from. This practice could have stemmed from the use of a Bb Wagner tuba playing these Strauss parts.
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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
| Posted 7/21/2012 9:22 AM (GMT -6) | |
KennethKen said...
ttw said...
BopEuph said...
At the risk of hijacking Charles' thread a bit more, I just learned that Don Quixote has a Bb tenor tuba part, written in bass clef a M2 higher. It even goes into treble clef, only a M2 higher still, which would throw me off completely as a euphonium player:
You will find this for all of Strauss tone poems that include euphonium. Many players try to find the concert pitched engraving to play from. This practice could have stemmed from the use of a Bb Wagner tuba playing these Strauss parts.
I thought that at first, but then remembered that Strauss does use Horns doubling Wagner tubas, notably in "Electra", where they are written in Bb treble clef (up a 9th) ...
Gareth J. Green
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David Ward
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834
| Posted 7/21/2012 9:44 AM (GMT -6) | | There're Wagner Tubas in the Alpine Symphony too, and I think in Die Liebe der Danae (and other pieces by Strauss, I think).
FWIW, I have Wagner Tubas in a piece of mine and have been advised to write as for Horn in F, leaving the choice of instrument to the players. In the UK, at least, these never belong to the players, but belong to large opera and symphony orchestras, from which they would be hired when needed by smaller ensembles.
EDIT: Just to add to that, I see the huge forces for Strauss's opera Die Frau ohne Schatten (see Wkipedia screenshot) also include Wagner Tubas. I did play in that once (almost 50 years ago), and seem to remember that the fourth trombone is meant to be a contrabass.
David Ward
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David Ward
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834
| Posted 7/21/2012 12:32 PM (GMT -6) | | BopEuph said...David Ward said...
FWIW, I have Wagner Tubas in a piece of mine and have been advised to write as for Horn in F, leaving the choice of instrument to the players. In the UK, at least, these never belong to the players, but belong to large opera and symphony orchestras, from which they would be hired when needed by smaller ensembles. Most band pieces come with euphonium parts in treble and bass clef, especially if they're sold in the US. I would say you could give an F horn part with an optional Wagner tuba part in Bb.
All that said, with Finale it should be easy enough to transpose the Wagner Tuba sections of a part into B flat alto should this be desired (I don't think B flat basso would be relevant).
See www.corno.de/schmid/en/wagnertuba.htm for a German maker's selection of Wagner Tubas.
David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward
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Keith B
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 7/30/2012 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | I just wanted to come back to the thread to thank you all for your various suggestions and in particular to thank Charles publicly for his help. You remember maybe (though the thread gave rise to a lot of discussion about other transposition questions) that he set out to do exactly what I asked for - write new instruments into the long list already available - and he did just that for the 2012 edition.
His idea inspired me to try the same thing for the 2010 edition since a lot of the people I work with still use the 2010 version.
I'm glad to say that I did manage this - and the system is good for the 2011 version too. The change to a genuine database system took place in time for the 2012 edition.
With so many hundreds of instruments already in the score manager it's not often that one needs something new - though it was true in my case for the Eb Bass.
I have tested the two systems and they transport perfectly. An Eb bass part written in the 2010 edition comes up correctly in the 2012 version.
Once again, many thanks, and if anyone wants to know how it's done I'm only an email away.
All the best
Keith | | Back to Top | |
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