|
|
| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > No double flats and/or sharps? | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
vicsant
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 36
| Posted 5/3/2008 12:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | How do I set Finale 2008 to NOT display notes with double flat and/or double sharp accidentals, but to display these
notes with the related simplified enharmonic spelling?
Likewise, I'd like a Cb to appear as B, Fb as E, E# as F, B# as C, etc.
Thanks,
Vic | | Back to Top | |
|
Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
| Posted 5/3/2008 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | |
vicsant said...
How do I set Finale 2008 to NOT display notes with double flat and/or double sharp accidentals, but to display these
notes with the related simplified enharmonic spelling?
Likewise, I'd like a Cb to appear as B, Fb as E, E# as F, B# as C, etc.
Why would you want to do this? Generally speaking, Finale does a good job of of interpreting accidentals according to "correct" rules of harmonic "spelling". I do not understand why people want to "simplify" these accidentals so that they are, theoretically "wrong"?
Gareth J. Green
Fin2008a
P4 - 3.00GHz; 1024Mb RAM; SB Audigy 2 ZS; WinXP home
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | | Back to Top | |
|
Edmunds
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 5/3/2008 1:16 PM (GMT -6) | | | Don't mean to sound pedantic, but I believe it would throw Bb instruments into Ab, not Fb. | | Back to Top | |
|
Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 5/3/2008 2:43 PM (GMT -6) | | There are spelling rule options which can be selected. You can even customize the rules. If 2008 no longer has this option, then I apologize in advance.
Also, in Speedy, hit the 9 key to change a note to its enharmonic. In Simple, I believe it is the \ key.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
|
Ron.
Composer
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828
| Posted 5/3/2008 4:59 PM (GMT -6) | | To respell a section, simple use the new selection/edit tool and click on "utlities" "respell notes" (It might be worded slightly differently. I'm doing this from memory.)
To change the spelling rules: under "Edit," select "Edit Major and Minor Spellings" (or "Edit chromatic and modal scales") and make your preferences.
If you type "Enharmonic spelling" into the search in the user manual, you will find more than you ever need to know about this options.
Zuill: with all due respect, there have been a lot of changes since 2005. Your comments on subsequent versions of Finale, especially, 2008, are becoming irrelevant and irritating. ("I don't have it, but this is how it used to be...")
Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com
Finale 2008a, full GPO & JABB
Win XP/Pro, 2.7 GHz processor, 2 Gb RAM | | Back to Top | |
|
Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
| Posted 5/3/2008 7:24 PM (GMT -6) | |
Wlgold said...
Gareth Green said...
Why would you want to do this? Generally speaking, Finale does a good job of of interpreting accidentals according to "correct" rules of harmonic "spelling". I do not understand why people want to "simplify" these accidentals so that they are, theoretically "wrong"? Because a lot of jazz and rock musicians haven't studied much theory, and it's easier for them to read a B than a C flat.
Sorry, I don't buy this.
1) In principle, I have no time for "dumbing down"
2) I have experience working with musicians from all backgrounds; usually, when people complain about "difficult spellings" of notes, I find that an explanation of the theoretical reasoning behind them is well received. Certainly much more so than attempting to explain to "educated" musicians why their parts are difficult, or confusing to read because they have been "simplified" ...
Gareth J. Green
Fin2008a
P4 - 3.00GHz; 1024Mb RAM; SB Audigy 2 ZS; WinXP home
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | | Back to Top | |
|
Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
| Posted 5/3/2008 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | |
Motet said...Praticality sometimes trumps pedantry. For example, if a piece modulates temporarily to Gb, which would throw Bb instruments into Fb, I see no problem with changing the notes in question enharmonically.
Nor do I. Notwithstanding your obvious error in transposition, given an example where a piece of essentially tonal music modulated into an extreme key for a transposing instrument, I would accept enharmic "re-spelling" of notes but only if such respelling were consistent. eg: a movement in concert 'D' Major modulates into concert 'F#' major; instruments pitched in Bb would find themselves in the key of G# major. Clearly it would make more sense for their parts to appear as if the key has become Ab major, however I would expect to see "correct spellings" for notes according to theoretical rules in that key, rather than a "simplified" and theoretically "wrong" and (worse) inconsistent mixture of "spellings".
Gareth J. Green
Fin2008a
P4 - 3.00GHz; 1024Mb RAM; SB Audigy 2 ZS; WinXP home
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | | Back to Top | |
|
David Young : chambermusic
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2000
Total Posts : 2694
| Posted 5/3/2008 8:38 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree with Gareth here.
David Young
Composer of classical-romantic style chamber and orchestral music.
Finale 2.4 through 2008b
Laptop PC, windows XP home, 2.4 ghz, 516 Megs RAM
Desktop PC, windows XP home, Gigastudio 3.03, 2 Gigs RAM, 3 hard drives
Apple Mac Pro, 8 quad, 3.2 ghz, 4 hard drives, Apogee duet, two wide screens
Also... GPO, Gigastudio 3.0, Kontakt 3.0, Logic Pro 8, Digital Perfomer 5, KH solo strings, VSL horizon solo strings, JABB, PMI pianos, Sampletekk renaissance flutes, Marimba, percussion, Giovani, Anthrology Celtic Winds and Spiritual Winds, complete Kirk Hunter orchestral library, Kirk Hunter Diamond Library, Garritan Concert and Marching band, Garritan Stradiveri violin and Gofriller cello, True Strike 1 and True Strike 2 and trying hard to learn the other language of music.
arranging and orchestration! | | Back to Top | |
|
Wlgold
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 1733
| Posted 5/3/2008 9:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Gareth Green said...
Sorry, I don't buy this.
1) In principle, I have no time for "dumbing down"
2) I have experience working with musicians from all backgrounds; usually, when people complain about "difficult spellings" of notes, I find that an explanation of the theoretical reasoning behind them is well received. Certainly much more so than attempting to explain to "educated" musicians why their parts are difficult, or confusing to read because they have been "simplified" ...
You don't need to buy it. Enough people want it so that Finale has put in a utility for it.... and personally, I find it easier to change a Bbb to an A so a saxophonist without a music degree can read it easily, then to give a theory lesson explaining why it was a Bbb to begin with.
Finale 2008a, XP Pro, 1GB, full GPO, JABB | | Back to Top | |
|
Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 5/4/2008 12:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Explaining what a Bbb is takes so little time, and the student will have the skill to handle it when he or she sees it again. If I expect my students to reach the highest level of reading ability, I teach them all that they need to know. If it means understanding all there is to know about sharps and flats, it's best they hear it sooner than later, because it will come up.
But there is a time to use the enharmonic spelling, and Finale can handle that too.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
|
ionian
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 441
| Posted 5/4/2008 4:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Gareth Green said...
1) In principle, I have no time for "dumbing down"
2) I have experience working with musicians from all backgrounds; usually, when people complain about "difficult spellings" of notes, I find that an explanation of the theoretical reasoning behind them is well received. Certainly much more so than attempting to explain to "educated" musicians why their parts are difficult, or confusing to read because they have been "simplified" ...
Quick story...
Years ago back in 2001 or so, I did charts for Bette Midler's tour at that time. I had put an Fb in the guitarist's part. She had a band of about 18 people, which are some of the top musicians in New York. The guitarist had mis-read the Fb. Before he could stop his line, Bette had stopped the entire band and publicly berated and humiliated the guitarist in front of everyone for his error. After the rehearsal the guitarist came up to me and said "Please don't do that to me again!". My answer..."No problem." And I never did. No chart ever leaves my place with Double Flats or a B#. And I've never gotten a complaint. In fact, what I hear most of the time is "Your charts pretty much read themselves". What I figured back then when the guitarist approached me was that it's better to give him what he needs to do his job and have these musicians like, use and recommend me then to waste everyone's time by lecturing them all about music theory in a studio that was probably costing more per hour then what I make in a month.
So in years of doing charts for the high paced and high pressured recording sessions and show bands of New York City, I've never had someone tell me that an A is incorrect and it should be a Bbb. I don't see it as dumbing down. I see it as helping the musicians get it right the first time, which for many situations here, is all that matters.
www.frankperri.com
Read an interview with me in the Feb 2008 issue of International Musician about being an arranger and working with dancers.
Makemusic : Please fix the basic notation functions and PLEASE FIX FIRST ENDINGS!!!!!!! | | Back to Top | |
|
Ron.
Composer
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828
| Posted 5/4/2008 9:25 AM (GMT -6) | | As for me, I'd much rather write: F# E# G, than F# Fn G. Or: Ab Bbb G, than Ab An G, or, even worse: G# A Gn. It's not "theoretical," it's the most economic way to write such passages. I expect any professional to be familiar with "strange" notes like Cb, E#, B#, and double flats and sharps.
Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com
Finale 2008a, full GPO & JABB
Win XP/Pro, 2.7 GHz processor, 2 Gb RAM | | Back to Top | |
|
Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 5/4/2008 9:43 PM (GMT -6) | | And many people would rather see a movie than read a book.
Where proper spelling makes things easier is in piano music. An Abm chord is spelled Ab Cb Eb. When you spell it Ab B Eb, it is actually MUCH more confusing. This is from 50 years of reading piano music. But who am I? I suppose the preferences of some studio musicians should dictate how music is written. Tell that to Bach, Beethoven and Brahms. They were the tops in their time, and a very quick look at their scores reveals numerous B#'s and Fb's, as well as doubles of both. You'll encounter a B# in just the first 4 measures of the Moonlight Sonata. I guess, because my teacher was not afraid to teach me music literacy, I can play the Moonlight Sonata. I suppose, beacuse it has B#'s and F double-sharps, that there are those who would choose not to play that most beautiful of works. It's all a matter of viewpoint.
But again, Finale can do it any way that you want. You can even do triple sharps!
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
|
BopEuph
Occasional Lurker, Occasional Poster
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 1163
| Posted 5/5/2008 1:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Wlgold said...
Because a lot of jazz and rock musicians haven't studied much theory, and it's easier for them to read a B than a C flat.
I am a theory nerd. In high school, I was analyzing music for the hell of it. Excelled in theory in college as a music education major. Then I changed my major to jazz studies. The theory you need to learn in jazz is SUPER intense. There's a reason we have to take six semesters of improvisation. The lectures in the first half of the classes were all theory. Jazzers know their theory as well, if not better, than classical musicians in general.
That being said, in our arranging classes, certain enharmonic tones were usually replaced for more difficult notes for spot on playing. The lesson was to write as if the player has one chance to get it right--because that will usually be the case. Sometimes, though, these notes can't be helped, and a true professional jazzer can and will read those notes.
Nick | | Back to Top | |
|
Sophie
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 188
| Posted 5/5/2008 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | As everyone seems to agree this is a complicated matter but I think I mainly agree with Gareth but, sometimes when I see keyboard parts with lots of flats I still write in names like "B ma7" over a Cb Ma 7 chord because even though the chord is printed correctly, on the night I'd rather play the right notes than congratulate myself on music theory half a bar too late ROFL!
In short I like enharmonics to be correct in general but sometimes it helps me play the right notes when they arent! | | Back to Top | |
|
Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 5/5/2008 6:15 PM (GMT -6) | | When it comes to chord symbols, I tend to agree, usually. I picture Bbm much more easily than A#m. Unfortunately, everyone has their own angle here. I am much more comfortable in flat keys, as opposed to sharp keys. This partly has to do with being raised on sight reading from a hymnal that preferred flat keys. However, I have had to discipline myself to be prepared for all circumstances. Additionally, I'm glad I'm not in a position to be berated by a superstar. Who needs that?
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 8:26 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2023 |
|
|