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NickG
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 362

Posted Today 1:52 PM (GMT -6)

Just wanted to show a sample page 1 of the Nocturne by Samuel Barber I'm testing in Dorico. The only adjustments I had to make is a slight adjustment in the slurs in the 1st measure LH. Please disregard the last 2 measures with the base voice rests that are not hidden. This is a bug that they will fix. I have to say I'm very impressed.

NickG

MacBook Pro Retina Display, 16 gig ram, 1TB SSD.
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Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted Today 2:00 PM (GMT -6)

Looks very good. I would have dotted the eighth rest in the right hand in the first bar. mp cantando needs to be higher, since I'm assuming it applies to the melody

Can you show what Finale would do by default?

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Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted Today 2:07 PM (GMT -6)

in the original, the mp is much closer to the upper staff, but the cantando is lower (and not touching the barline)

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NickG
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 362

Posted Today 2:10 PM (GMT -6)

Yes! you are correct in your assessments. Dorico did exactly what you suggested. I changed it purposely to exactly copy how it was produced by my old copy of S.Schirmer.

NickG
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 362

Posted Today 2:13 PM (GMT -6)

Michel R. E. said...
in the original, the mp is much closer to the upper staff, but the cantando is lower (and not touching the barline)

Quite right, I was playing with adjustments so I made those adjustments.

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted Today 2:32 PM (GMT -6)

Schirmer have never been the finest engravers.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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Finale Transposition Chart

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted Today 3:14 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
Schirmer have never been the finest engravers.

absolutely agree.
though the truly ugliest engraving I have is a International Music Company edition of Prokofieff's 2nd piano concerto, with the most egregious vertical alignment errors I've ever seen.

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted Today 3:22 PM (GMT -6)

I think that kerning feature is overloaded here. Everything is kerned. Not needed actually.

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

MikeHalloran
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 217

Posted Today 3:42 PM (GMT -6)

In addition to he other suggestions, I would slide the 8va a few pixels to the right. It looks very good.

Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
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OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted Today 4:00 PM (GMT -6)

NickG said...
Just wanted to show a sample page 1 of the Nocturne by Samuel Barber I'm testing in Dorico. The only adjustments I had to make is a slight adjustment in the slurs in the 1st measure LH. Please disregard the last 2 measures with the base voice rests that are not hidden. This is a bug that they will fix. I have to say I'm very impressed.

Please post on www.notat.io

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted Today 4:29 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
Schirmer have never been the finest engravers.

I would disagree with that. In their early days, Schirmer produced very beautiful and particularly warm-looking engraving.

Aside from some problems in this Dorico example that require a bit of user tweaking, I much prefer the overall appearance of Finale using the Maestro font. This looks anemic to me.

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The better the composer, the better the notation.

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted Today 4:44 PM (GMT -6)

I may be being unfair to Schirmer. I guess I'm also influenced by the cheap printing and binding of those yellow editions.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

NickG
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 362

Posted Today 5:15 PM (GMT -6)

I wanted to mention that doing this in Dorico required just about no tweaking (aside from my moving things around to test). I think that I would have done a lot more tweaking in Finale. One oddity I encountered was with 8va. I enter the notes as I would like to see them on the page, select the notes. Invoke 8va. And all the selected note shift down an octave. I have to manually shift them back up. Not too happy with that.

NickG
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 362

Posted Today 5:16 PM (GMT -6)

OCTO. said...

Please post on www.notat.io

Will do.

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted Today 5:38 PM (GMT -6)

I'm not impressed at all with the look of Dorico. Maybe it's just me, but the barlines look far to thick. And what's up with the piano brace? A bit huggy to the left barline for my taste.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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NickG
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 362

Posted Today 5:41 PM (GMT -6)

Just wanted to update on the 8va issue. I found that while in note input mode, before entering the note, I can invoke 8va - then all the notes I enter stay put. That speeds thins up.

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted Today 7:37 PM (GMT -6)

Sorry, but this demo has a lot of problems. I realize you're probably still in the process of "test driving" the software, so you're dealing with Dorico's default output, which at this stage looks pretty raw.

√ The slurs in m1 are not good. Finale's default is much better:

√ The text in m1 is too big. Should be same size as "cantando".

√ The accidentals on all 16th notes are too close to the preceding note or stem. There is no need for this crowding because the music is not that dense.

√ The dynamics are indeed "optically centered" under the corresponding notehead, which sometimes gives the illusion that the dynamic mark is slightly to the right of center.

I know that Dorico has a long way to go, a year or 2, before all features are implemented and algorithms are smoothed out.

N.

OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
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Jetcopy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2000
Total Posts : 4795

Posted Today 7:42 PM (GMT -6)

.... and the 4th system on the page, the accidentals are colliding with notes in the 4/8 measures, yet the 12/8 measure could have been made less wide to alleviate this problem.

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/19/2016 6:00 AM (GMT -6)

Dorico does much effortlessly for which Finale requires some manual intervention. However, the reverse is also true: many of Dorico's weak points are easily or effortlessly dealt with in Finale.

The question is: can Finale improve its deficiencies before Dorico completes its own improvements?

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BvdPress
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 1006

Posted 12/19/2016 8:49 AM (GMT -6)

Can the accidental distance from the notes be adjusted? The naturals many times appear too close while the flats seem to be the right distance. Measure 7 is a good place to see the different distances.

It looks fine, but really similar to a lot of other programs that have come and gone over the years. Immature now, but who knows maybe in a year or so much better :)

Bryan Doughty
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Post Edited (BvdPress) : 12/19/2016 7:52:03 AM (GMT-6)

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 12/19/2016 10:01 AM (GMT -6)

Dr. Wiggy said...
Dorico does much effortlessly for which Finale requires some manual intervention. However, the reverse is also true: many of Dorico's weak points are easily or effortlessly dealt with in Finale.

The question is: can Finale improve its deficiencies before Dorico completes its own improvements?

WELL stated!

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Knut
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 601

Posted 12/19/2016 10:33 AM (GMT -6)

BvdPress said...
Can the accidental distance from the notes be adjusted? The naturals many times appear too close while the flats seem to be the right distance. Measure 7 is a good place to see the different distances.

Yes. Dorico allows control over the distance between individual accidental types and their applied note, as well as the minimum distance between accidentals and the succeeding note.

Indeed most of the issues raised in this thread can be easily remedied by altering the global engraving options, but, of course, some of these may present problems in other sections of the same movement Dorico's flow concept allows you to apply different engraving and layout settings to different movements of a piece.

Wiggy said...
Dorico does much effortlessly for which Finale requires some manual intervention. However, the reverse is also true: many of Dorico's weak points are easily or effortlessly dealt with in Finale.

While this is certainly true, there is no question that Dorico allows much finer control over different engraving problems and cases than Finale, which, in turn, reduces the amount of manual editing needed.

John Ruggero said...
Aside from some problems in this Dorico example that require a bit of user tweaking, I much prefer the overall appearance of Finale using the Maestro font. This looks anemic to me.

Really? I can certainly understand your preference for one font over another, but given the razor thin stroke width of many aspects of the Maestro font, I'm puzzled that Bravura, which is much bolder, would give you the more 'anemic' impression. Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/19/2016 11:31 AM (GMT -6)

There are a number of other SMuFL fonts that can be used with Dorico, including November, and that number is certain to grow. They need to have a JSON file (sort of open-source FAN equivalent).

My feeling is that Bravura is too heavy: you can mitigate this by reducing the staff line width and a few other things, for starters.

However, the biggest limitation for me is that Lyrics (and various other text elements) cannot use the full range of font styles. e.g. Condensed or Book cannot be selected.

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Knut
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 601

Posted 12/19/2016 11:58 AM (GMT -6)

Dr. Wiggy said...

There are a number of other SMuFL fonts that can be used with Dorico, including November, and that number is certain to grow. They need to have a JSON file (sort of open-source FAN equivalent).

The JSON file of SMuFL fonts contain a lot more information than a Finale FAN file and is a key component of Dorico's advanced kerning and placement abilities. This means that, if Finale is ever to adopt the SMuFL standard, they will, theoretically, be able to take advantage of the same information. The question is, though, whether Finale's current architecture allows for this.

Fred G. Unn
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 1268

Posted 12/19/2016 1:44 PM (GMT -6)

Zuill said...
And what's up with the piano brace? A bit huggy to the left barline for my taste.

+1, I hate that! It keeps triggering my "proofreading eye," as after a couple of decades of proofreading, my eye is naturally drawn to collisions. I definitely would want a bit more space there. I don't suppose that's possible yet is it?

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