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wrayer
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 1999
Total Posts : 144

Posted 5/8/2013 7:59 AM (GMT -6)

I am working on creating accompaniments for a trumpet Etude book. Is it possible to have the trumpet in a flat key signature with the piano in a sharp key signature. Here's the predicament: The Bb trumpet is in Eb minor which puts the piano in Db minor. Finale, of course, puts the piece in C# minor which puts the trumpet in D# minor. I'd like to get the trumpet to display in the Eb minor key sign and the piano to display in the C# minor key sign. Is that possible?

Bill

Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146

Posted 5/8/2013 8:31 AM (GMT -6)

Bill,
Yes, it's possible. Set your piece in the piano key. Select the Trumpet staff, and in Staff Attributes, check "Independent Key signature." Edit the Trumpet key sig, and there you are!

Remember to display in Concert pitch, if you want the trumpet to display 6 flats.

Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

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Post Edited (Mike Rosen) : 5/8/2013 8:38:02 AM (GMT-5)

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wrayer
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 1999
Total Posts : 144

Posted 5/8/2013 9:01 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks Mike, I knew it could be, but had no clue. Thanks!

Bill

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 5/8/2013 10:00 AM (GMT -6)

Also, read this thread which contains a different solution, namely a custom staff style with A♯ transposition (instead of B♭ transposition):

forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=397554

Peter

Mac Finale, 2011c & 2012c, Dolet 6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.7.5, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 5/10/2013 1:12 AM (GMT -6)

I think Motet's solution (from the other thread) to set the transposition as 2, -10 is the easiest way to go.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes

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Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/10/2013 2:17 PM (GMT -6)

Yes; I think "display in concert pitch" suggested above is not the best work-around.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 5/12/2013 8:50 AM (GMT -6)

Again, to anyone having transposition issues, I offer my Finale Transposition Chart Rev.5, where you will find many transposition settings (Interval, Key Alter) that are not supplied by MakeMusic.

Note that Motet's suggestion is shown in the Bb(A#) row under the 3rd Alternate Values column.

[File deleted, see subsequent post for latest revision http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=398663&p=1]

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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 5/18/2013 10:44:34 AM (GMT-5)

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Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/12/2013 11:57 AM (GMT -6)

Bb and A# are quite different, hence this discussion, so you might want to separate them in your chart. A# is not "up M2," it's up a diminished third.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 5/12/2013 12:42 PM (GMT -6)

Motet,

Thanks for the info. I make no claim to be a music theory expert. A year or so ago when I was compiling my chart, I solicited comments and/or corrections/additions from anyone who saw what I had posted, and got no response except from KennethKen. Please, if you, or anyone else more knowledgeable than me on the subject, has any such comment about my chart, please let me know. I seek no fame or glory, just an accurate, complete, and useful chart.

Do you see any other corrections that should be made, and if so how? Perhaps in Eb(D#) or Ab(G#)?

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/12/2013 12:49 PM (GMT -6)

Yes, I think you need to make a separate row for those, too, like you have with Db and C#. You could probably get rid of Cb.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/12/2013 12:55 PM (GMT -6)

Based on the other thread, my impression is that "simplify key" will change 6+n flats to 6-n sharps, and 6+n sharps to 6-n flats, regardless of major or minor, if n > 0. In other words, it won't change 6 flats to 6 sharps, or vice-versa. If you're in there experimenting, though, it would be nice to verify that for sure in all situations.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 5/12/2013 3:55 PM (GMT -6)

Motet,

Help me understand. I can see that 2 semitones away can be called either a M2 or a d3, but I don't see why A# transposition is called up d3 as opposed to up M2, or why Bb is called up M2 as opposed to up d3. Any guidance will be appreciated. Sorry for being such a dunce.

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/12/2013 5:53 PM (GMT -6)

Because the enharmonic notes, though they sound the same on the piano, are not the same thing.

Trumpet in A#'s key will be two degrees on the staff higher than concert (C) instruments, because A is two degrees of the staff lower than C. Two degrees = a third. (This "2" is Finale's "interval" in the transposition setting.) Since A# to C is two semitones, this must be a diminished third.

But for Trumpet in Bb, Bb is only one degree on the staff lower than C, so its "interval" is 1. One degree = a second. Since it's two semitones (still), this is a major second.

The "key alter" is kind of a cumbersome thing, and your chart provides a valuable service, so I think it's worth perfecting.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Fred G. Unn
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 1268

Posted 5/12/2013 6:32 PM (GMT -6)

Great chart Charles! OP, Robert Puff did a blog on this a year or so ago:
http://www.rpmseattle.com/of_note/alternate-key-signatures-for-transposing-instruments/

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 5/12/2013 6:54 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks, Motet. I'll study what you say and try to apply the principles to the rest of the enharmonic transpositions in my chart. I think I'll keep Cb since it has values documented nowhere else.

Thanks, Fred. I had not seen Robert Puff's page yet, even though I have visited his site many times.

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 5/12/2013 8:00:06 PM (GMT-5)

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/13/2013 7:29 PM (GMT -6)

Charles,

Attached is my take on this. Feel free to use any or none of it.

Some of your key alterations are wrong, e.g. "(-6,-12)," so you might want to fix that. The key alteration merely says how to change the key signature, so for C major it would be 0 no matter how many octaves you're transposing. The extremes I found are -10 for A# and +6 for Gb (I didn't include Cb transposition, though).

I broke the octaves apart and included instruments which use the transposition, so it ranges from glockenspeil to baritone sax. I think this might be helpful for people wanting to see where their instrument fits in. I tried to list all the transposing instruments I'm familiar with, but I'm not very familiar with band instruments. I used Finale's band template to educate myself somewhat.

(Attachment in a subsequent posting.)

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Post Edited (Motet) : 5/14/2013 5:14:53 PM (GMT-5)

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/13/2013 10:36 PM (GMT -6)

There was a mistake in the file, so I fixed it and reattached. Oddly, the forum now won't let me upload the .docx file, but I could a couple of hours ago.

I'm fairly confused about sax and band instruments! Hopefully I have it right now.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Post Edited (Motet) : 5/13/2013 10:52:05 PM (GMT-5)

Jim Coull
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 2723

Posted 5/14/2013 7:31 AM (GMT -6)

Motet,

Nice work on the listings, but I think you have the written and sounding values flipped for the B & Bb (3rd & 4th lines). IOW, Bb would be a minor 7th and B would be a major seventh.

Jim Coull

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/14/2013 11:09 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks. I added the "in Bb alto," etc., to the horn descriptions, so when you see that you know which octave it means. I also got rid of a couple of oddball ones like horn in Ab basso (which exists ("Falstaff"), but is obscure).

(Attachment in a subsequent posting.)

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Post Edited (Motet) : 5/14/2013 5:14:39 PM (GMT-5)

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 5/14/2013 11:16 AM (GMT -6)

Motet,

Thanks for your input. I'm still in the process of revising my chart. I'll try to use your info as much as possible. I'm fast running out of real estate on a single 8.5 x 11 page with a font size big enough to read. I may need to use two pages for the chart.

BTW (-6,-12) is correct but Simplify Key must be checked. I left that off. I tried to verify everything on the chart more than once, but things have a way of slipping under the radar.

[EDIT] The notes in my chart say that all the settings assume Simplify Key is checked except where noted.

Also for the uninformed like me, what do you mean by the Sounds and Written columns? With respect to what? An example would help me out.

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 5/14/2013 11:38:07 AM (GMT-5)

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/14/2013 12:14 PM (GMT -6)

"Sounds down a major 2nd" (to take Bb clarinet or trumpet as an example) means that a note an instrument plays will sound a major 2nd lower than what's written. "Written up a major 2nd" is just the opposite: the note is written a major 2nd higher than what you actually hear. The former is more common among musicians; the latter is what Finale uses in the dialog, so I included both, even though it's really the same information.

Note that (6, -12) is not really transposition in C, but rather B#, not the same, which is the issue that started this discussion.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 5/14/2013 3:40 PM (GMT -6)

Motet,

I studying your chart, I think there is an error in the C# line just above C unison. I think the interval should be aug. 1st not aug. 2nd.

I am still trying to figure out a good way to present the info in a table similar to what I had before. I like the way you have yours organized by increasing numerical order by interval. Good idea. I think I'll do the same.

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 5/14/2013 4:01:34 PM (GMT-5)

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/14/2013 4:28 PM (GMT -6)

Right you are on the error--thanks.

I added Trumpet in F (common in late 19th century, early 20th century), Bass sax, and contrabass clarinet (both in Bb).

(Attachment in a subsequent posting.)

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Post Edited (Motet) : 5/14/2013 5:15:25 PM (GMT-5)

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/14/2013 5:13 PM (GMT -6)

And again. Tenor sax was in the wrong octave. Added soprano and bass sax, contrabass clarinet. I'll stop for a while, though likely there are other errors!

(Attachment in a subsequent posting.)

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Post Edited (Motet) : 5/14/2013 10:17:16 PM (GMT-5)

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 5/14/2013 5:35 PM (GMT -6)

When you think about it, you could add Xylophone along with Piccolo and Celesta.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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