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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > A little OT: What should we expect of Finale? | Forum Quick Jump
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David Ward
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834
| Posted 8/8/2015 4:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | Various current threads have made me ask the question. Are we right to complain so often about the things that don’t work for us exactly as we might wish when working with Finale?
I can feel as frustrated as anyone else when I can’t get the software to do as I want immediately. But then, I also used to feel similarly frustrated in the past when my pencil lead (I think in the US it’s called something different) snapped when least expected, or my part copying ink smudged - or for that matter when the D-valve link on my bass trombone became detached in the middle of a concert &c &c &c.
I’m not sure whether it’s age (74) or temperament, but I’m rather inclined to expect things to go wrong and thus to feel pleasure when they go right (which is most of the time).
It seems to me, that whatever problems may have to be overcome, preparing typeset full scores and parts in Finale is quicker, easier and vastly less expensive that it was by the methods of 30 years ago, AND - wonder of wonders - one can make quick subsequent edits with the minimum of fuss. And - this really does seem magical - one can e-mail PDFs for printing for performance almost anywhere in the world without the cost and potential worries associated with international post, import taxes and all the rest.
I’m just sharing a passing thought or two with which others may not agree.
David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward
Finale 2014d with Mac 10.9.5
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools
Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014
“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK | | Back to Top | |
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Mike Rosen
himself
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
| Posted 8/8/2015 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | | You're absolutely right, David. It seems to me the height of ingratitude to constantly complain about the nits, and ignore the value of everything else.
The wonder is not that the bear dances well, but that he dances at all.
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html
Finale 2010, 2011, 2012c, 2014d, on Yosemite 10.10.4
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."Post Edited (Mike Rosen) : 8/8/2015 7:29:27 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 8/8/2015 11:01 PM (GMT -6) | |
John Ruggero said...
Ah, voices of Reason emerge from the fray.
If only Mozart had had Finale. We would now have K. 1626 instead of K. 626, and he would have finished it himself. I have a feeling that if Mozart had a computer, he may have played video games more and composed less. Who knows?
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present. Now 2014d.
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods
Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628
| Posted 8/9/2015 2:20 AM (GMT -6) | | I have often quoted Donald Byrd, "the father of computer notation", who writes in one of his papers that “Fully automatic high-quality music notation is not merely non-trivial, but in general impossible, without human-level intelligence.” Some human intervention in what the computer does will always be required.
There are as many exceptions as there are rules; and people use Finale for music from Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern, Post-Modern, avante-garde, Jazz/Big Band, each with its own conventions.
However, there are obvious bugs: things that should work, which do not. These can be annoyances; obstacles; things that must be negated by some routine set of steps. They can also be show-stoppers and time-wasters. Computers these days are many times more amazing than those 20 years ago, but Finale still has code from those days.
Ultimately, I believe that if we want to use "the best that Finale can be", then MM needs our support, not our censure. File the bug reports. Make sure you've got the usage stats turned on. Get involved in beta-testing. All of these are more useful than lengthy venting here.
By all accounts, Sibelius does not solve every problem, either. And while the Steinberg new app may have much to commend it, I suspect that it will launch before it represents the culmination of the art.
"This is me helping."
Finale 2014d, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.10.3)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.ukPost Edited (Wiggy) : 8/9/2015 6:35:05 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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BrassOrigins
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2013
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 8/9/2015 1:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Wiggy said...
I have often quoted Donald Byrd, "the father of computer notation", who writes in one of his papers that “Fully automatic high-quality music notation is not merely non-trivial, but in general impossible, without human-level intelligence.” Some human intervention in what the computer does will always be required.
There are as many exceptions as there are rules; and people use Finale for music from Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern, Post-Modern, avante-garde, Jazz/Big Band, each with its own conventions.
However, there are obvious bugs: things that should work, which do not. These can be annoyances; obstacles; things that must be negated by some routine set of steps. They can also be show-stoppers and time-wasters. Computers these days are many times more amazing than those 20 years ago, but Finale still has code from those days.
Ultimately, I believe that if we want to use "the best that Finale can be", then MM needs our support, not our censure. File the bug reports. Make sure you've got the usage stats turned on. Get involved in beta-testing. All of these are more useful than lengthy venting here.
By all accounts, Sibelius does not solve every problem, either. And while the Steinberg new app may have much to commend it, I suspect that it will launch before it represents the culmination of the art.
Thanks for that sentence!
We bought our first Finale/Coda music in 1989 together with our "powerful" MAC SE/30 (couldn't get much better and more expensive in those days;) )....Now, nearly 26 years later, every tiny bit is still a reminder of this very first version.
Quite honestly, IMO Finale hasn't really moved forward to the 21st century. Still caught up in burocracy.
Some of my former students use Finale....those pencil pushers I felt, back then, were utter bores.
The others, the really artistic and interesting ones, have either chosen other programs in the first place or have switch from Finale for exactly my very reasons.
You are right to say that rather than complaining we should get involved...yet, for the high costs of Finale licences I would expect things to work smoothly without my technical knowledge which is virtually non-existing.
Jule
The problem with common sense is, it's not very common. | | Back to Top | |
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Ronwass
bassist/composer/arranger/conductor/bandleader
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1492
| Posted 8/9/2015 2:47 PM (GMT -6) | | I have now heard mention of this mysterious "Steinberg" software that is coming, and how it is going to be a game changer. It's been well over 12 months, or even 24 or more. Does anyone really think that something brand new, and probably grossly under-resourced, is going to change the game against two legacy programs that have had at least a medium level of institutional and corporate support and have had that for close to 20 years?
And especially, do you think that it will be any less buggy than the two biggies?
Ron Wasserman
F2014c user since F2000
Desktop: 2012 i5 Macmini 4g ram OSX Mavericks 10.9.5 Casio Keyboard midi out to edirol to usb
Laptop: Intel Dual Core, 2g ram, Windows 7
TG Tools full version on both machines
". . . I love music, and anything that interrupts music, I hate."
Astor Piazzolla, Central Park ConcertPost Edited (Ronwass) : 8/9/2015 2:57:02 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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Jetcopy
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2000
Total Posts : 4795
| Posted 8/9/2015 3:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Ronwass said...
I have now heard mention of this mysterious "Steinberg" software that is coming, and how it is going to be a game changer. It's been well over 12 months, or even 24 or more. Does anyone really think that something brand new, and probably grossly under-resourced, is going to change the game against two legacy programs that have had at least a medium level of institutional and corporate support and have had that for close to 20 years?
Yes, it has the potential to be a game changer IMO. The advantage being, it's being developed from the team of programmers that used to work on Sibelius. They've done it once already, they know what they would have done differently with Sibelius and now they are getting the chance to do that with no legacy code involved. We don't know if they're "grossly under-resourced". Daniel blogs frequently about their process and progress they're making. From my perspective, they are aiming the program at professionals.
Ronwass said...
And especially, do you think that it will be any less buggy than the two biggies?
Retina Macbook Pro OSX 10.9.5, 2.5GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM | | Back to Top | |
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Zoots
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 385
| Posted 8/10/2015 9:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Wiggy said...Ronwass said...
I have now heard mention of this mysterious "Steinberg" software that is coming, and how it is going to be a game changer. It's been well over 12 months, or even 24 or more. Does anyone really think that something brand new, and probably grossly under-resourced, is going to change the game against two legacy programs that have had at least a medium level of institutional and corporate support and have had that for close to 20 years?
And especially, do you think that it will be any less buggy than the two biggies? The reason for the excitement is that several members of the team making it used to be the core of development for Sibelius, and Steinberg (the makers of Cubase, owned by Yamaha) does seem to be throwing considerable resources at it. But why not judge for yourself? blog.steinberg.net
From the Spreadbury's blog it is obvious that the team are well aware of the issues concerning computer music notation and they are attacking the various components with attention to detail right at the onset rather than releasing a program that does basic notation and then start fudging it to accommodate spacing, clashes, different features, etc. This fudging is what turns programs into spaghetti kludges.
Of course it will have bugs but hopefully they will get quickly corrected and you won't be reading things like, " this has been a much discussed problem in several versions but it hasn't been fixed".
Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria
Smartscore Pro X2
Windows 8.1
Intel i7 with more than I need | | Back to Top | |
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Ralph L. Bowers Jr.
Polymathist
Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 883
| Posted 8/10/2015 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Zoots said...Wiggy said...Ronwass said...
I have now heard mention of this mysterious "Steinberg" software that is coming, and how it is going to be a game changer. It's been well over 12 months, or even 24 or more. Does anyone really think that something brand new, and probably grossly under-resourced, is going to change the game against two legacy programs that have had at least a medium level of institutional and corporate support and have had that for close to 20 years?
And especially, do you think that it will be any less buggy than the two biggies? The reason for the excitement is that several members of the team making it used to be the core of development for Sibelius, and Steinberg (the makers of Cubase, owned by Yamaha) does seem to be throwing considerable resources at it. But why not judge for yourself? blog.steinberg.net From the Spreadbury's blog it is obvious that the team are well aware of the issues concerning computer music notation and they are attacking the various components with attention to detail right at the onset rather than releasing a program that does basic notation and then start fudging it to accommodate spacing, clashes, different features, etc. This fudging is what turns programs into spaghetti kludges. Of course it will have bugs but hopefully they will get quickly corrected and you won't be reading things like, " this has been a much discussed problem in several versions but it hasn't been fixed".
Also, from Daniel's blog he has said recently that they are at the halfway point in development (2 years +).......so I am expecting good things from this team, Steinberg and Yamaha.
Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.0, Write Score Sound Sets, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.4
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, [Notion 5, (bought but not installed)]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (4) // Windows XP Pro, 2@ Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil
BMus, MM (Musicology) | | Back to Top | |
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OCTO.
The radical answers.
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659
| Posted 8/11/2015 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | David, your comparison with pencil and ink is not valid. Pencil and ink do the job what they are supposed to do. If YOU spoil the ink, it is YOU not the ink.
I will give you an example.
How many times we had on this forum "how to write in Korean, Russian or Hebrew letters?".
Unicode was invented 1991/2 and Finale AFTER 20 years implemented that. So, it was difficult to use anything except the Latin Western Encoding. That was not the USER but the SOFTWARE that lacked a completeness. It is lack of respect for users that do not use the LWE. And what happened is that many of these users simply switched to Sib.
Another example. Many times we have spoken about collision of accidentals in layers. So, it is not the USER but the SOFTWARE that doesn't respect the music theory and engraving.
I can continue with a long list of "bugs" - which are not bugs but badly implemented engraving logarithms. A bug is when something SHOULD work as it is stated but it doesn't, or breaks in the middle.
The long list is the badly implemented software engraving procedures (falsely so called BUGS), which are not fixed after so many years, scare me definitely. Yes, I did produced fantastic looking scores with Finale. I could do it with much bigger effort in Musescore, or even much bigger effort in MS Paint. But that is not the point. The developer must listen to the users, and respect their needs. If needed they must re-compile the entire software to the more modern and flexible platform. They should open a bug-tracking online as open to public, so that all see what doesn't work. And to see if something is neglected or fixed. I am tired of hearing about "improvements under the hood". It is a nonsense.
Otherwise the value on the stock market will drop down. It is so simple.
Finale 2009c now (works better than 2011c) on OS X 10.6.8 and not thinking to upgrade any more until both computers die completely (iMac 21', MacBook Pro 13'). | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 8/11/2015 9:44 AM (GMT -6) | | MakeMusic is a privately owned company, so their value on the stock market is not a factor; they are no longer listed.
MakeMusic does not *have* to do anything to fix "bugs" or add features to the application. It would be smart for them to do both, however.
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 8 64-bit, 12GB RAM
If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read | | Back to Top | |
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David Ward
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834
| Posted 8/11/2015 4:59 PM (GMT -6) | | I suppose I anticipated that my original post would produce these varied reactions and that not everyone would altogether agree.
For myself, I remain in a state of wonder that computer generated music typesetting works at all, let alone for substantial and complex scores; but then, like others, I have begun to rely on it. As a consequence, what disconcerts most is when something has worked so that one has got used to it and has come to expect it - then suddenly, and for no immediately obvious reason, it fails. It's as though one were voyaging in a hitherto well-found boat that has suddenly sprung a leak, or that the swell reveals a dangerous, uncharted rock where least expected on the edge of one's regular channel.
(Apologies for the seagoing metaphors, but I've spent a lot of time on islands off the north and west of Scotland …)
David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward
Finale 2014d with Mac 10.9.5
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools
Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014
“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK | | Back to Top | |
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