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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Cadenzas: c'mon, Finale, you can do better. | Forum Quick Jump
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Skjalg
Accordion man
      
Date Joined Nov 2000
Total Posts : 927
| Posted 10/3/2011 2:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | My, and other posters' point is: You look for changes that might be an improvement to your way of working, but probably not to the majority of Finale users, I guess. Different users experience different issues with Finale. My issue is the lack of grace note spacing in linked voiced parts, your main issue is about music input. I do not say that Finale's main construction and and input interface is perfect, but it seems to suit most users just fine.
Why the measure/beam/time signature thing keeps coming back to you during this thread? Well, it kind of indicates a music notation software skill level where it might be wise to listen to the advice and opinions of some of the earlier posters, people who are true Finale masters and most valuable contributors to this forum.
Skjalg Bjørstad, Norway
_____________________________________________
Finale 3.0 > 2011c, Macbook, 4 gB 300 gB, GPO JABB, GPO full version, Oxygen 8v2, Yamaha CP33, Echo AudioFire2, PreSonus AudioBox USB | | Back to Top | |
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michelp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 2232
| Posted 10/3/2011 8:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Jesper,
As far as I know, JW Time Sig has not been updated. It is still available here, though : www.jwmusic.nu/freeplugins/index.html. Although it is no supposed to be compatible with recent versions of Finale, I would give it a try, some people report it is still working. You don't risk trying...
JW Conceal barlines is available at Jari's website, in the Plug-ins section : www.finaletips.nu/index.php?option=com_sobi2&sobi2Task=sobi2Details&catid=3&sobi2Id=18&Itemid=8.
PS : keep an eye on Jari's Facebook page : www.facebook.com/jwpluginsforfinale
Michel
Finale 2011c, 2010b, 2009b, 2008b, MacOsX 10.7.1 (Lion), Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 8 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 5.5. Full TGTools. Midi interface : MOTU Midi Express XT. Roland Sound Canvas SC88-vl. | | Back to Top | |
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Jari Williamsson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246
| Posted 10/3/2011 8:20 AM (GMT -6) | | | |
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michelp
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 2232
| Posted 10/3/2011 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | | |
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Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 10/3/2011 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | @Jesper: the plugins are still readily available and, while quite a few haven't been updated for years, they still work with Finale 2011. I just tried out the Time Signature plugin and it works fine. This attests to JW's solid programming! Here's a website where you can download it (and many other plugins): www.finaletips.nu/index.php?option=com_sobi2&catid=3&Itemid=8
jscomposer said...
Besides, writing and playback are 2 different things. Once you're done entering notes, Finale can easily see how many beats there are in the measure. So the meter numerator can be "infinite" or perhaps a better term would be "unspecified." This would allow you to enter music freely in one simple step, with correct beaming, barring and spacing.
@Joshua: you really have no idea, do you? You don't claim to want mind-reading software and yet you want to be able to set an unspecified meter numerator and then you expect Finale to know what the 'correct' beaming, barring and spacing should be. How is Finale supposed to make meaning out of your freely-entered musical rantings unless they closely adhere to simple conventions, in which case you could (and should) have determined the parameters beforehand. As has been pointed out, making cadenzas is as easy as pie and there are several ways of doing it. You seem to have decided that it's more difficult than it should be but you haven't considered the consequences of making a program which tries to double-guess the intentions of an extremely wide range of users with widely varying needs. I can guarantee you that neither MM nor Sibelius is going to spend time trying to cater to a single user who wants software to guess his intentions.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 2011c, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 5 plugin
MacOS 10.7.1
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB
Kontakt 4.2
Amsterdam | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 10/3/2011 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Am I on Twitter?
2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, ... all have the same beaming and spacing, so that's not a very strong argument, unless the cadenza is in compound meter or Bulgarian rhythm.
jscomposer's thoughts are a bit half-baked, but he has a point that resorting to plug-ins, hiding time signatures and barlines, etc., is rather cumbersome. I can envision a meterless mode where you enter as many beats as you like and Finale adjusts its internal and undisplayed time signature as necessary. And a simple way to split such a measure either by selecting the latter half or perhaps a keystroke in Simple entry at the cursor point.
That said, it would be low priority for me on the list of improvements.
Finale 2011b, 2005b, TGTools
Windows XP Post Edited (Motet) : 10/3/2011 11:20:29 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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Mike Rosen
himself
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
| Posted 10/3/2011 11:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Not for cadenzas only, but a meterless mode would be nice for chant, plainsong, etc. Yes, there are ways to do it, but the question comes up often enough that a "one-step" method might be nice.
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
Bass for What's Cookin' www.whatscookinvlq.com
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm
Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
Still happily on Windows XP, SP3
Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker." | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/3/2011 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | I think these are suggestions that fill a need, but may not be practical in some ways. I am not a programmer, but I will say Finale has enough spacing issues as it is, and it seems that a meterless function would complicate an already less than perfect feature. When you do a score by hand and want to write a cadenza, you merely write what you can where you can, without regard for meter. When a system fills up, you move to the next.
With Finale, you can assign a large time signature to a measure (say 100/4), and force that to a system, then repeat the process for as many systems as you need. When you get as much as will fit on a system, you move to the next. When you're done, apply the plugin to make each measure the meter associated with the number of beats that are actually there. That way spacing is better. You also then choose an invisible barline for the end of each measure (system as well) and choose to not count all but the first in measure numbering.
Now, for all the other parts, you choose to create a multimeasure rest for those measures and modify number to get rid of it (choose the method that works best for you) and put the text Cadenza over it. This can be customized to taste.
I don't find this extremely painful or unmanagable. or am I missing something obvious?
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012 Soon?
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/3/2011 3:24 PM (GMT -6) | | The way I look at it is that somebody has to be fairly advanced to even be at the point where they are entering a cadenza, in my estimation. If a pianist who can barely play the Minuet in G by Bach attempts to play Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto, he's way over his head. So, if someone is not well versed in the ins and outs of Finale, any complex type of music entry will be demanding on engraving skills. It just takes study and persistence. I suppose someone could invent a way of simplifying the process, but I don't see that it would take a re-write of the basic code, but maybe a plugin. Cadenzas are so different, each and every one, that the variables might be way more than one could predict.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012 Soon?
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
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jscomposer
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 40
| Posted 10/3/2011 6:59 PM (GMT -6) | | I see a few people are starting to understand what I'm saying, including the fact that there's no mysterious mind-reading involved. 
To reiterate for the nay-sayers and ball-busters in the trenches, and for people just checking in... I never said meterless measures. I said infinite or unspecified meter NUMERATOR. It couldn't be simpler:
Select the meter tool and double-click a measure; move the "number of beats" slider all the way to the right (or left) till the meter looks like ?/4 (for example) and click OK; select Speedy Entry and knock yourself out; when you're done, Finale easily sees and specifies the number of beats, and expands the measure to accommodate the notes.
Think of it as an automated JW Time Sig plugin, but with the correct beaming, as you're able to specify the meter denominator (note duration) before you start. (The JW Time Sig plugin can yield strange fractions that result in sub-optimal beaming.)
If they wanted to be slick, they could even add an "unspecified number of beats" option to the Speedy Entry menu. That way, if you realize you made a mistake and need to add a note or two, you can toggle between specified and unspecified number of beats, so you don't have to open the meter tool window again. Come to think of it, with an option like that in the menu, you wouldn't even need to bother with the meter tool at all! Just select the Speedy Entry tool, click a measure, check "unlimited beats" and go to town! And/or a keyboard shortcut! 
The other suggestion is simple enough: to be able to highlight segments of a measure and use the up and down arrows to move them to adjacent systems just like you would whole measures. The "allow horizontal split points" approach is cumbersome and dysfunctional, while the split measure plugin is tedious.
http://www.youtube.com/joshuasethcomposer | | Back to Top | |
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Michel R. E.
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430
| Posted 10/3/2011 9:11 PM (GMT -6) | | jscomposer said...Michael Mortilla said...
[img]abusive image removed[/img] That's enough now.
reported to forum moderators for personal abuse
Michel R. Edward
Composer, teacher
Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2011b
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010, 2011b
GPO 4, Garritan J&BB 3, CoMBand, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello
Xsample Chamber Ensemble
Win XP
join us on Compose Forums | | Back to Top | |
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Christopher Smith
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 2290
| Posted 10/3/2011 9:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Michael Mortilla said...
OK, you're making some sense now and I can see what you are asking for and understand precisely why you might want or need it. But realize that people who arrive at a place where they are about to notate a cadenza (or any music for serious engraving or notation) presumably already know precisely how many notes they need. As Mozart would say: No more; no less. Very few composers and arrangers don't have that information prior to setting a score down and that is where the suggestion falls on deaf ears. Those who want to (or for whatever reason - need to) work as you suggest are so far in the minority of general users of advanced software intended for that specific purpose, that the feature is not worth the effort for the software programmers to even consider. There are much bigger fish to fry in terms of getting these programs to do what they do as it is. At best, you might approach someone like Tobias to program a plugin for your specific need.
I think this kind of program functioning is the reason so few composers use Finale as a composition tool at all. I often go back and make changes, sometimes while in the very process of notating it in Finale, and I have to remember what I did, and re-do it. It does get to be a bit of a pain, even though I know the procedure and am pretty comfortable with it.
Actually, one feature I would LOVE is for Finale to be able to take a pitch of unspecified length, but exactly in the start position I need, without filling the rest of bar with rests. I often compose this way, but because Finale won't let me do it on the computer, I still compose on paper. Even Cubase let me "paint" notes in piano-roll view, and go back later to set the lengths.
But before implementing this marvelous new feature, I would rather see the existing bugs fixed.
Christopher Smith
Mac 2 x 2 Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
OSX 10.6
Finale 2011b
or
Mac iBook G4 733 Mhz
OSX 10.4.11
Finale 2010b r.1Post Edited (Christopher Smith) : 10/3/2011 9:46:01 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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jscomposer
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 40
| Posted 10/3/2011 9:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Christopher Smith said...
I think this kind of program functioning is the reason so few composers use Finale as a composition tool at all. I often go back and make changes, sometimes while in the very process of notating it in Finale, and I have to remember what I did, and re-do it. It does get to be a bit of a pain, even though I know the procedure and am pretty comfortable with it.
Actually, one feature I would LOVE is for Finale to be able to take a pitch of unspecified length, but exactly in the start position I need, without filling the rest of bar with rests. I often compose this way, but because Finale won't let me do it on the computer, I still compose on paper. Even Cubase let me "paint" notes in piano-roll view, and go back later to set the lengths.
But before implementing this marvelous new feature, I would rather see the existing bugs fixed.
My suggestion of "infinite" or "unspecified" meter numerator (number of beats per measure) would achieve this end.  You'd enter the note with whatever duration you want as your "place holder," and when you come back to it later, there'd be no extra rests. You'd just have to change the note duration if necessary and proceed freely.
http://www.youtube.com/joshuasethcomposer | | Back to Top | |
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Mike Rosen
himself
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
| Posted 10/4/2011 8:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Guys,
Be sure you report this childish behavior via a PM to Justin, rather than just hitting the alert button. As we've been told with spam, the "alert" mailbox doesn't get checked as often as it should.
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
WebMaster and bass for the Seattle SeaChordsmen www.seachordsmen.org
Bass for What's Cookin' www.whatscookinvlq.com
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm
Print Music 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010; Finale 2010b, 2011b
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
Still happily on Windows XP, SP3
Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker." | | Back to Top | |
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jscomposer
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 40
| Posted 10/4/2011 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | | |
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