MakeMusic Forum

Home | Log In | Register | Search | Help

MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Problem with vanishing hyphens and moving syllables

Forum Quick Jump

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 12/6/2016 2:23 AM (GMT -6)

Good morning,

I have entered lots of lyrics in a rather long score, started in f2014. During entry, Smart Hyphens and Word Extensions were turned off. Now, when I switch them on, there is a big problem.

Smart Hyphens on: ALL the hyphens between syllables disappear.
Word Extensions on: Syllables shift to wrong position or even to wrong notes and the lyrics become a mess.

I have tried using Update Word Extensions and Smart Hyphens on the utilities menu, but no result.

Any ideas? How did this happen and how can it be solved? I need both smart hyphens and word extensions, so keeping them off is no option.

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/6/2016 2:33 AM (GMT -6)

Well, seeing a file always helps, but maybe you can't share. Can you make a screen shot of the window with all the settings?

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/6/2016 2:39 AM (GMT -6)

Harpsi said...
Syllables shift to wrong position or even to wrong notes and the lyrics become a mess..

Lyrics Menu > Lyric Window Options. Make sure both check boxes are OFF.

Harpsi said...
During entry, Smart Hyphens and Word Extensions were turned off. I need both smart hyphens and word extensions, so keeping them off is no option.

Why turn them off for entry? I have Smart Hyphens and WEs on at all times.

If Update Hyphens didn't work, I would try turning them off and on again. Failing that, check they Lyrics Window to see whether hyphens have actually been input.

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 12/6/2016 3:02 AM (GMT -6)

Well, I got the habit of doing that on my old system where everything got really slow with them on. Anyway, I had a look in the Lyrics Window and it seems that the hyphens sometimes are strangely put; like en - ter - tain - ment instead of en-ter-tain-ment (mea culpa). I will try to clean that up and see what happens.

Unticking the ticked lower check box in Lyric Window Options did not help.

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 12/6/2016 4:13 AM (GMT -6)

When the hyphens are 'strangely put', did you put hard spaces around the hyphens? Regular spaces would alter lyric attachment and hard spaces would skew the spacing. How many lyrics did you put into a single verse/chorus/section? It's a good idea to keep the number of syllables per lyrics window to a manageable number. If you did this, you could try copying the syllables to a word processor, cleaning it up there and pasting it back. That might also mess things up royally. It would be better if we could see a file. BTW, I concur with Wiggy in questioning why you turn off AH and WE while entering notes.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 12/6/2016 5:00 AM (GMT -6)

I will try to make an excerpt from it.

I do not think I put any hard spaces in.

Sofar, I have managed to clean verse 1 (199 lines in the Lyrics Window) from superfluos line breaks, spaces and extra hyphens. This solves the problem of hyphens disappearing when I turn on Smart Hyphens, but the mess with turning on Word Extensions remain. Maybe I have to go through all the verses before I can judge if that solves it; my method with lyrics is to prepare them in a text editor and then paste them into the lyrics window. But then there are always corrections that I do directly typing in the score (possibly not even in the right verse, they have all the same baseline), I never try to edit anything in the Lyrics window.

However, when I try to paste into verse 2, Finale freezes.

The thing with pasting in the lyrics window is that in one verse, there can be much more text than what is visible in the lyrics window, so it is really a bit confusing how THAT works.

Well, AH and WE slowed things down working on this rather large score so that is why I turned them off. Won't do that again.

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 12/6/2016 5:26 AM (GMT -6)

Ready for some 18th century Swedish?

Smart Hyphens are activated in this file, and since verse 1 was cleaned up the hyphens show up as expected.
Now turn on Word Extensions and you will (probably) see what happens. It is worst on page 4.

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

File Attachment :
excerpt.musx 813KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 585 time(s).

johnmouse
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 849

Posted 12/6/2016 7:08 AM (GMT -6)

When activating smart word extensions, I see long word extensions, not long hyphens. You have one syllable lasting for several notes, including tied notes. This is what the word extension is showing. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're looking for here?

John

Finale 2012/2014 (Well, it's installed.)
M-Audio KeyRig 49
Desktop: Windows 8.1/i5 Core/8 Gig RAM
Laptop: Windows 7/i3 Core/6 Gig RAM

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 12/6/2016 9:23 AM (GMT -6)

The problem is not with the hyphens or the word extensions. The problem is that the lyrics change in a number of ways when I go to document options and activate the word extensions. It is easy to see this behaviour on page 4. Try undo/redo to quickly flip between before and after.

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/6/2016 10:02 AM (GMT -6)

I know this is just part of a document (at least that's what I think you did), but the order of lyrics in the window and in the score is quite different. If that is what is in your full document, that can have some bearing. I like the order in both to match. Otherwise, there may be trouble.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 12/6/2016 11:00 AM (GMT -6)

Yes, it is just a few pages. The lyrics in the window start with what is before the excerpt.

Just to investigate, I deleted the parts of what is in verse 1 that is not used in the excerpt, cleared the lyrics from the score and click-assigned them again with Smart Hyphens and Word Extensions ON. Everything works. Maybe the problem arises from entering lyrics with SH and WE off.

Would be nice not to have to re-enter all.

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/6/2016 11:04 AM (GMT -6)

If you originally entered by typing into the Score, that might be the issue. Some users say they have no problem. However, from my 20 years experience with Finale, I have learned, the hard way, of the drawbacks to typing lyrics directly into the score.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 12/6/2016 11:12 AM (GMT -6)

The mess in the lyrics window is probably because of copying lyrics to other staves and correcting errors by typing into score.

Anyway, it seems that I have found a solution (fingers crossed). This is what I did:

-I deleted all the lyrics from the excerpt, and then activated SH and WE in this file.
-From my original file (where lyrics are OK as long as SH and WE are off) I filtered out and copied the lyrics from the section i question.
-Back in the excerpt, I pasted the lyrics. All hyphens intact, all smart hyphens and word extensions correct.

I really hope this will work throughout the file, would save me a lot of time.

Thank you all for your input.

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 12/6/2016 11:14 AM (GMT -6)

No Zuill, I click-assigned them. But probably the editing of occasional mistakes by typing into score caused some problems in my case. I generally also try to avoid typing into score.

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/6/2016 11:15 AM (GMT -6)

Looks like you are getting it worked out. I do believe the cause was not Smart Hyphens or Smart Word Extensions. The editing in the score caused confusion to those 2 features. The clean entering of lyrics makes everything else works as it should.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Forum Information

Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 6:55 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual