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deejay
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 4/25/2011 4:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | I use Songwriter 2010 to help me learn choral music. I started a new project with a midi file from an open source. With default settings the playback instruments appeared to be as labelled on the tracks but I wished to change them. After some very unscientific experiments additionally involving the tweaking of the instrument list, I managed to get the music to play as I wished it to sound within Songwriter but my new settings don't appear to be fully preserved when closing and re-opening the file, ALSO, I cannot get an export to an audio file (MP3) to sound the same as internal playback ie the original instruments seem to be persistant. I'm not using anything exotic. The original uses piccolo, clarinet, french horn, basoon, harp, string ensemble 1 x2. My version substitutes synth voice, and choir aahs for the first four (SATB). I've experimented with MS GS Wavetable Synth, SmartMusic SoftSynth 1, and SB Audigy 2ZS Synth A. I have also tried different PC MP3 players and a midi to MP3 converter. All to no avail. Perhaps I have not struck the lucky combination of settings. Any advice would be appreciated.
MS W7Pro64
Songwriter 2010
Creative SB Audigy 2 ZS | | Back to Top | |
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Fritz Meissner
Choir Addict
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 3238
| Posted 4/25/2011 12:43 PM (GMT -6) | | When you export to MP3, Songwriter will use the Smartmusic Softsynth sounds. Select the softsynth as your MIDI out instrument, then get playback to sound the way you want it and the export should sound the same as what you are hearing. Also, those settings should save with the file.
Make sure in the instrument list that each instrument is on a different channel (and not channel 10, because that is reserved for percussion). I do a lot of practice recordings for my choir to help them learn their parts - each part recording has that part panned over to one side, and the other parts on the opposite side, and also I set the volume in the instrument list a bit higher than the other parts. It also helps to use a contrasting instrument for the part you want to hear - I use sax because it is clearly audible ( no jokes now, please) and the softsynth samples don't have vibrato on them, which some of the other instruments do (choral singers should be singing one pitch, not five).
Fritz
PrintMusic 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2010 Windows 7 Home Premium, Pentium i5 750 quad core + 4 GB; Cakewalk UA-101
2nd Tenor Cape Town Male Voice Choir
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deejay
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 4/25/2011 2:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Fritz, I'll try again with SoftSynth. The reason I swapped around and started losing the will to live was because I couldn't get the instruments to change using purely the mixer. I had to use the instrument list to get the internal playback right. The original music settings seemed to be 'stuck' and/or wouldn't save as I wished.
As for the remainder of your reply, I do almost exactly the same but use grand piano for the contrast. Usually though I start from sheet music and laboriously enter just the voices. This time I started with a midi file from www.learnchoralmusic.co.uk and thereafter negated my planned shortcut to success !
TVM
Dave | | Back to Top | |
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curlyloopa
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 4/25/2011 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | | OK I tried the Knowledgebase (I think) but I'm still stuck. I am using Windows 7 (sadly) and Finale 2011 (because I thought there would be major improvements in attaching lyrics to words, but that's another story). I was very happy with Windows XP and Finale 2007 so that's my background.
When I try to record as audiofile, if the file is small, it will let me, but if it's more ambitious, say more than 2 min of music, it may SAY it's playing, and LOOK LIKE it's playing, but there is no sound at all. And if it's more like 4 min. of music, nothing is recorded at all. This would all be solved by saving as an mp3 instead of a wav, but I never get that menu! You're supposed to click "export to audio" in the Fike Menu and then up pops a menu: how would you like to save it? where would you like to save it? what would you like to name it? I get the second two but never the first one about choosing to save as an mp3 or a wav. Can anyone help
Thanks in advance. PS my work is very much choral too. | | Back to Top | |
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warrenbarnett
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 1441
| Posted 4/25/2011 7:27 PM (GMT -6) | | If you are using VSTs, you only get the option for .wav files. You need another program to convert the wav to mp3. Lots of freeware for that out there.
Warren Barnett
Windows 7
Finale 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
Garritan Personal Orchestra 2
Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.01
Garritan Jazz & Big Band
Garritan Jazz & Big Band 2
Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3
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Garritan World Instruments
Garritan Steinway Piano Basic Edition
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.52
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deejay
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 6/13/2011 12:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Fritz
I've been away a while and I've come back to my problematic midi file 'Cantique de Jean Racine' SATB !
I still can't get an exported MP3 to sound like an internal replay no matter what output options I've tried so far :-( Even internal replay is not without its problems with this file ! Instrument choices seem to be 'sticky' using mixer or instrument list, as if SongWriter knows better than me
I've processed .midi files for 'Jesu Salvator Mundi' and 'O Felix Anima' too and the sound starts and finishes 4 or bars after an internal replay start/stop ! - 'Quite' annoying really :-(
David
W7Pro64
Finale SongWriter 2010 (Affinity set to one core)
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deejay
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 6/13/2011 3:06 PM (GMT -6) | | I tried an export as .wav and the result was no different to .mp3 and I can't think why there should be. Generic midi applications tend to use a synthesized output which is eventually rendered through the sound card to speaker or .wav/.mp3 file. Unlike replaying a midi file, replaying a .wav or .mp3 never uses a synthesizer, it is just digital to analog conversion, so there should be no difference aside from file size and slightly inferior quality.
As I see it, there are three basic output (and internal replay) routes :- 1 Sound card based synth, 2 MS GS Wave Table based generic synth or 3 SmartMusic SoftSynth.
If I understand it correctly there is only a compatibility problem across the choices when the required instruments are either missing or mapped in a different way. Also instrument simulations may differ in quality between synthesizers and this is where sound fonts / virtual instruments make their presence felt. There seems to be so many factors that it reminds me of trying to guess serial modem parameters :-(
I chose the SoftSynth which I don't think will be affected by my Audigy settings even if a VST were selected, I could be wrong ! As I have said before however, there seems to be a problem making my choices of instruments permanent with this one file. I've not experienced this specific problem with other files. Maybe I should start from a different midi source file !!!
It is frustrating - I ditched my previous midi software because it intermittantly refused to be logical and now it appears to be happening again. There must be a reliable route through this maze
David
W7Pro64
Finale SongWriter 2010 (Affinity set to one core)
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Fritz Meissner
Choir Addict
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 3238
| Posted 6/13/2011 3:50 PM (GMT -6) | | David, that is very puzzling. Everything you say above is correct; when SW renders a file directly to an audio file (and as you say, it should make no difference whether it is wav or mp3) it should be using the the same sample banks as the softsynth, so the resulting file should be identical to what would be played back directly, down to the last bit of data. If it isn't then I think it would be worthwhile raising a support case with MakeMusic, as there must either be some factor we are missing here, or a bug in the program.
I have come across midi files that did mysterious things on playback when imported into PM, but then they did it consistently on real time playback and on rendering to a file. My reliable route through the maze is to get right down to the basics and open the midi file in something that will let you look at exactly what is in the file. You can then strip out everything except the actual note data from the file before importing it which cures the mysterious happenings. Some things I have used for this are :
1. Midi file assembler/disassembler if you really want to get down to the metal - a pair of command line programs which turn a midi file into a text file, which you can edit in Windows Notepad and then turn back into a midi file. This comes from The MIDI Technical Fanatic's brainwashing centre which is a treasure of detailed hardcore MIDI info.
2. I also used to use Quartz Audiomaster which is a piece of freeware which has been around for a long time - it has also not been updated for many years. It was somewhat useful but pretty buggy when I last used it, so I would advise caution if you try to use it on a modern computer.
3. I am currently using a full-on DAW called Reaper, which is free to try, and very reasonably priced if you decide to keep on using it. It is a bit overwhelming, and probably a bit more than you really need just to peer into a midi file.
Alternatively, if you want to spend a bit of money, you could look at one of the commercial sequencer programs - I'm not up on which are currently recommended, but I'm sure others on the list could make suggestions.
As a matter of interest, I've recently finished entering a TTBB version of Cantique de Jean Racine to make practice recordings for my choir.
Fritz
PrintMusic 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2010 Windows 7 Home Premium, Pentium i5 750 quad core + 4 GB; Cakewalk UA-101
2nd Tenor Cape Town Male Voice Choir
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deejay
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 6/14/2011 2:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Fritz
Thanks for your usual informative response.
The first part of my last response was more of a reply to 'ttw'. I haven't experienced a difference between .wav and .mp3 as he/she seems to have.
Fortunately the Cantique is not uncommon on the net and I have found a number of examples. I quite often just re-create the 2/3/4 voices from sheet music but the Cantique has an instrumental section in the middle and I don't propose to add that so I started with a piece published by a like minded soul who unfortunately biased the stereo balance the opposite way to my convention. Left = other voices, reduced volume. Middle = instruments if any. Right = rehearsal voice.
I'll start again with a new piece, I think it may be quicker in the long run.
It is quite amazing how many of us there are creating our own wheels ! I suppose the regard for the quite often unknown intellectual property rights becomes a factor for reticence in sharing. Some have even written their own software for replay ! We bought cheap mp3 players with earphones, though their operation seems to be beyond many members.
On another brief note whilst intending to close my original thread, can you give any advice on echo reduction when recording in church. We have a 3 choir gig on the 2nd July and I intend to record sound with a laptop and CakeWalk UA-1G + E-Soft Media Audio Capture and edit combined video collected from others. I'm hoping that with up to one hundred choristers and perhaps double that in audience we will flatten the echo somewhat without much effort from me.
Thanks again.
Dave
_________________________________________
W7Pro64, Pentium i5 750 quad core + 4 GB
Finale SongWriter 2010 (Affinity set to one core)
Creative SB Audigy 2 ZS, CakeWalk UA-1G
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Fritz Meissner
Choir Addict
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 3238
| Posted 6/14/2011 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Dave,
How much reverb you pick up is a function of your miking. If you want the sound dry, then you need to use directional mikes and put them close to the source of sound. Obviously this would mean a lot of mikes to cover three choirs. I'm not sure if you are using multiple mikes into a mixer desk and the putting the recording out from the mixer into the UA-1G (by the way I have one of those myself, it works very well), or if you are just using a single mike into the interface. If it's just a single mike, then I'm afraid you're going to pick up the total sound with no options and you'll have to live with that. You will get best results with a mike that is not omnidirectional, but with a wide enough pick up field that it does cover the whole choir.
The audience will dampen the environment a lot - that's something that always startles one as a choir singer. You practice in an empty venue, then at the performance you suddenly find that it sounds completely dead and you can't hear yourself sing. If they're not prepared for it, it can put the choir off their stride.
By the way, I don't know the E-soft Media Capture program, but an alternative is Audacity which is open source and free but as good as any commercial program around for basic recording and audio processing work.
Fritz
PS : when you bought the UA-1G, did you get the bundled Sonar LE ? If so, use that to look at your problematic MIDI file. Sonar has good MIDI editing capabilities, in fact you may not even need to bring the MIDI file into SongWriter as you should be able to turn it into recordings straight from Sonar.
PrintMusic 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2010 Windows 7 Home Premium, Pentium i5 750 quad core + 4 GB; Cakewalk UA-101
2nd Tenor Cape Town Male Voice Choir
Use the Finale Knowledgebase first ! Post Edited (Fritz Meissner) : 6/14/2011 7:42:37 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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warrenbarnett
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 1441
| Posted 6/14/2011 9:38 PM (GMT -6) | | If you are still having issues, why not post the file (or part of it) so that we can take a look. You may have an problem in your file, or a problem in your setup.
Warren Barnett
Windows 7
Finale 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
Garritan Personal Orchestra 2
Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.01
Garritan Jazz & Big Band
Garritan Jazz & Big Band 2
Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3
Garritan Concert & Marching Band
Garritan Concert & Marching Band 2
Garritan World Instruments
Garritan Steinway Piano Basic Edition
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.52
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deejay
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 6/15/2011 3:13 AM (GMT -6) | | warrenbarnett
Thanks but I've moved on to another source file.
Fritz
Yes there was a mention of Sonar but some international nonsence prevented me registering it (/buying it for free). I have a midi to mp3 converter (which also has synth mapping options) which works well but having noticed the feature in Songwriter it had influence on my purchase of it. I'm pretty sure I have a midi sequencer/editor but I haven't learned how to drive it. Anyway I'm fairly certain the problem is with the file and so I've moved on.
Have you experienced the replay start/stop latency ? In my case it makes Songwriter practically useless as an interactive audio visual rehearsal tool. Like I said before, almost 4 bars of music are lost waiting for output and when stopped before the end Songwriter will continue the last note/s for a similar period. Perhaps there is potential fo another thread here. I may return to Anvil Studio for that rehearsal feature. There are a few rehearsal utilities out there and I have a couple but I like to start/stop/repeat/loop interactively whilst watching a progress cursor on the virtual sheet music. If only I had learned to play a keyboard or read music :-(
I have access to a 4 mic mixer which will be in use. How directional our mikes are though I'm not sure. We're planning on a 'location' rehearsal so I'm hoping to try it out. It's got to be better than previous recordings from on-board digicam mics !
I have Audacity but it won't record direct to mp3 without additional software which it is rather coy about. With a bit over 1 hour of concert thats a lot of .wav
We've done a two choir gig before, in the same church actually, and I remember the difference in sound between rehearsal and concert ! Mostly our venues are small and when bigger our audiences are not large so we are familiar with hearing our echo ! We have two open air projects in the planning stages for next year and already there is concern about the flat acoustics of the likely venues.
However, it is about time I left this thread since I've digressed enough.
Thanks all
Dave
_________________________________________
W7Pro64, Pentium i5 750 quad core + 4 GB
Finale SongWriter 2010 (Affinity set to one core)
Creative SB Audigy 2 ZS, CakeWalk UA-1G
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Fritz Meissner
Choir Addict
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 3238
| Posted 6/15/2011 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Dave,
Re start/stop latency, I'm using a system which is almost an exact duplicate of yours, except that I have PM10 rather than SW; since upgrading from PM07 to 2010, I have noticed some latency on start (which wasn't there before), but it's more like half a bar. This issue has been mentioned before and the extent of the delay varies; so far I haven't heard anyone coming up with an explanation for the variation.
I hear your issue with the size of uncompressed recording files, but with the size of modern hard drives, the files are not really much of an issue. With Audacity the file size depends on settings - if you record 16 bit 44.1 ksamples/sec, then they will be about the same as wav files, but if you record 24 bits, 48 ksamples/sec then they will be much larger and you can of course go even larger, but you won't persuade me that it makes any difference. I don't like recording directly to mp3 because the compression is lossy, and if you then want to edit the sound in any way it has to be uncompressed and recompressed, with further quality loss each time you re-save it.
Good luck with the choir project and the recording - you are right that it can't turn out worse than on-board camcorder mikes.
Fritz
PrintMusic 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2010 Windows 7 Home Premium, Pentium i5 750 quad core + 4 GB; Cakewalk UA-101
2nd Tenor Cape Town Male Voice Choir
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deejay
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 6/16/2011 2:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry, it's me again ! BUT success at last. I just couldn't let it go
I successfully installed and registered Sonar LE (64) on my W7P64 machine (where I had previously failed on Vista 32). I opened the Cantique midi file which was giving problems and set the four intended choral tracks to Choir Aahs/Oohs and played it, so far so good. I saved it to a new version of the .mid file and opened it with Songwriter. Not only did it play the chosen voices and show appropriate mapping in the Instrument List, it exported to mp3 with the chosen voices !!! I'm asking myself "What does this say about SongWriter's ability to read (perhaps not fully compliant) .mid midi files ?" Answers on a post card ... NOT
I can sleep now !
Dave
_________________________________________
W7Pro64, Pentium i5 750 quad core + 4 GB
Finale SongWriter 2010 (Affinity set to one core)
Sonar LE 64, Creative SB Audigy 2 ZS, CakeWalk UA-1G
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Dave BTW
Bytheway Dave, what's your last name?
Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 421
| Posted 6/16/2011 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | I can understand your skepticism. You are correct that frequencies above 20 kHz especially for us older guys (I am also 56) are not perceived directly. Your second comment is probably closer to the mark. It isn't the out-of-band stuff that we miss, is the in-band stuff (processing artifacts, the effects of too steep anti-aliasing filters, etc) that is much better at 96 kHz. I could explain the technical reasons but this isn't the place for a long technical discussion.
Short version: The effect that I hear the most is that the 96K stuff is much more relaxed and natural sounding, smoother, less forced, for want of a better word. Much easier to listen to long-term. When converted to 48K, or 44.1K even with the best sample-rate-conversion routines available (and I have tried and measured many) there is a degradation. Taking things to 16 bits from higher resolutions requires the absolute best dither & rounding algorithms, and these have very audible significant degradations. Some sound very good indeed, but they are not as good as the original.
In my analog design days, I was building the equivalent of 384 kHz or higher sample rate stuff with more than 20 bits of real dynamic range. These devices had a single pole-roll off which is techspeak for smooth, no phase shift, transient perfect waveforms. No digital system to this day can equal this, although we get closer all the time. During the early 2000's I designed an audio processor that had A/D and D/A conversions with 24 bit processing core. The converters I used were able to resolve to about the 19 bit level, or -115 dBFS. When I measured these devices with my analog analyzers, I found that for the first time I was able to measure a digital device that had waveforms, frequency response and noise floors -- and distortion levels close to what my analog designs were cable of delivering. That is the real trick. What does the analog source sound like? Few digital systems can completely reproduce what the analog source fed to them sounds like. We are getting closer all the time, but it is an interesting test to compare the input to and the output from any digital recording device during a live recording.
I was also skeptical at first. But now that I have been doing 96K and 192K recording work and have a playback system that is truly capable of reproducing these signals without resampling, etc. I can clearly hear the difference, and to me now it isn't subtle. If even these old ears can hear it, I am sure younger ones can too. I am sure the difference is audible and I think that most musicians could hear the improvement on a suitable system (unless their ears have been damaged by too much loud performing).
It is too bad we are located so far apart. Since we both deal with Choral music, which is the source of the best intermod distortion out there, I would love to have you sit with me and my colleagues and listen to the differences. I think I could make you a believer.
In the meantime good luck to you!
-david BTW
David Bytheway - Desktop Finale 2011 WinXP - TGTools - Nuendo 4.3 - Wavelab 6.1 - Reaper Beta 4 -RME Fireface 800 | | Back to Top | |
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Fritz Meissner
Choir Addict
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 3238
| Posted 6/20/2011 3:07 PM (GMT -6) | | deejay said...My return to this thread is getting predictable  I think I may have discovered a pattern to my Mixer/Instument List issues. I started a new mini project with C. Saint-Saens Ave Verum and downloaded midi examples from 3 different sites. opening them all (individually) I examined the Instrument List and found (like the Cantique mentioned previously) that they all have multiple Layers for each system/stave. When this is the case, tweaking the Mixer has unpredictable and apparently inconsistant audio results both in playback and audio wav/mp3 export. Tweaking the Instrument List instead fairs no better but I am assuming that I am overlooking something that I perhaps should know but haven't found in the manual. I know there are multiple versions of midi and perhaps this has a bearing but I know that when I laboriously mouse in some sheet music resulting in only one layer per stave then the Mixer behaves predicably and I can get instruments, volume and stereo balance just the way I want it. Is there a way of 'collapsing' or merging the layers of a stave into one ? Or perhaps, is there a way opening a midi file so that there is only one layer per stave ? I've attached a sample for anyone curious enough to look. open it and look at the Instrument List. Click the 'expand' triangle alongside each staff name. Then ask yourself how to manage the output ! Dave
Dave,
What exactly do you get when you import this midi file ? In PM10, the results are as per the attachment - everything is in layer 1. There are four staves, but only the top one and lower one have notes, each having two lines of notes, but all in layer 1. I've had a look at the raw midi, and that is exactly how it is written in the midi file as well: channels 6,7,8 and 9 are initialised, but only channels 6 and 9 have notes. I would have expected that PM10 and SW10 would give the same results when importing, and I'm not aware of any settings that can affect how midi channels are divided amongst staves, so now I'm puzzled.
Fritz
PrintMusic 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2010 Windows 7 Home Premium, Pentium i5 750 quad core + 4 GB; Cakewalk UA-101
2nd Tenor Cape Town Male Voice Choir, participating in the London Welsh Choir of the World 2012
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