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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/14/2016 1:02 PM (GMT -6)

I'm not convinced that Articulation placement is as it should be. Look at the example here. I've ticked "Avoid Staff Lines" and "Place Outside the Staff", but the default position for notes on the middle line is actually sitting ON a staff line.

1. What do people think the correct / preferred placement should be?
2. Is Finale wrong here?

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
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N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 12/14/2016 1:39 PM (GMT -6)

My preference would be that they clear the staff.

It looks like your "Default Vertical Positioning" and "Handle Positioning" need some work. I would use the settings for the marcato accent (>) as those look to be nearest to the parameters you want. Just duplicate the marcato and swap out the symbols.

N.

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N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 12/14/2016 1:50 PM (GMT -6)

How's this:

N.

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/14/2016 2:50 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks, that's really nice.

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/14/2016 5:51 PM (GMT -6)

I am used to seeing the tip of the wedge very close to the note head, no matter where the note head occurs. Here is an example from the Schenker edition of the Beethoven op. 27 no. 1:

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John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/14/2016 6:25 PM (GMT -6)

I should add that E. Gould says on page 120 that:

"Accent marks and wedges are usually best placed outside the stave where they are most visible…but can move onto the stave..." if they would be too far away from the note.

Then she mentions that "The ^ accent and wedge should intersect a stave line for greatest visibility." and gives an example of wedges starting off the staff but then accompanying the notes into the staff as they move lower and lower.

I think that in general it looks unnatural when articulation marks hover in one position over the staff as the notes move away from them. But the horizontal > accent gets obscured when placed on the staff and one has to put up with this unnatural placement. However, the wedge and ^ are vertical and may be placed on the staff without being obscured by the staff lines.

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 12/14/2016 6:27 PM (GMT -6)

John Ruggero said...
I am used to seeing the tip of the wedge very close to the note head, no matter where the note head occurs. Here is an example from the Schenker edition of the Beethoven op. 27 no. 1:

See attached. You make some good points.

N.

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Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 12/14/2016 10:08 PM (GMT -6)

Interesting. I agree with John (and Elaine Gould) and actually with Wiggy's first example, in which the wedges follow the placement of the noteheads but intersect the staff lines where necessary to aid visibility. In this regard, the Schenker edition is inconsistent, as the wedges sometimes intersect the staff lines (as I would prefer them) as in mm. 43-45 but are often placed between them.

Vaughan

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John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 12/14/2016 10:25 PM (GMT -6)

The Schenker edition (Universal), and N.s' second example follows a different principle: the tip of the wedge is practically touching the note head at all times, which brings it into conflict with Gould's observations. I think that Gould's system may lead to a more elegant result if one elects to let the wedges run into the staff.

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 12/15/2016 12:11 AM (GMT -6)

Perhaps "place outside staff lines" means the handle. You can adjust where the mark lines in relation to its handle in the settings.

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/15/2016 2:36 AM (GMT -6)

Indeed. The documentation does actually say that it relates to the handle position, not the actual object itself.

I'm as much interested in whether Finale's settings are helpful as what the optimal placement should be.

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

jange
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 53

Posted 12/15/2016 3:30 AM (GMT -6)

It has to do with how the glyph is placed in the font.
If it goes below the baseline, then it can cross the staff lines.
And in this case it is below the baseline.
See attached screenshot (horizontal green line = baseline).

Jan

Elbsound.studio

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