Finale SmartMusic
  Home | Log In | Register | Search | Help
   
MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Horn notation, slightly OT  Forum Quick Jump
 
You cannot post new topics in this forum. You cannot reply to topics in this forum. Printable Version
37 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :  1  2 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Per Ottar Gjerstad
Registered Member

Click to send Per Ottar Gjerstad email.Personal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Per Ottar GjerstadAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Sep 2000
Total Posts : 132
  		   Posted 3/31/2013 2:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hm, I could not find the other occurrence (in G) of the music from the overture....

I don't know what he could mean with the remark about the extra filling parts. Maybe it's something regarding the distributions of the musicians, eg. some of them sometimes played different instruments. The horn players where also viola players if we shall believe the personnel lists of the Académie.

Per Ottar Gjerstad
Mac Book Pro 15"

Back to Top

Kelby
MakeMusic, Inc. Employee

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to KelbyAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 69
  		   Posted 4/1/2013 2:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
G basso would be very strange indeed. The lowest Basso type transposition is in Semiramedi with Ab basso parts. The most common are C basso and Bb basso.

Good catch by Gjerstad.

-K

Kelby
 
"Talent Borrows, Genius Steals" Igor Stravinsky
Mac and PC Finale user since version 3.5+

Back to Top

Motet
Isorhythmic



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to MotetAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
  		   Posted 4/1/2013 2:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Verdi's Falstaff also has an Ab basso horn solo at the beginning of Act III.

What's odd about this part is that it wouldn't have been practical to play from--the A's aren't in the overtone series. Perhaps it was put into F as some kind of "conductor's score," though that doesn't really make sense, either.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

Back to Top

kvehmane
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to kvehmaneAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 117
  		   Posted 4/2/2013 4:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The A's are totally playable; see this excerpt from Mozart Serenade in c minor (quickly made from Online Mozart, sorry) horn lines are marked with red line.
Might be that in Rameau's time players did not know how to hand-stop, but in any case the 7th partial is flat, maybe enough to pass for as an A...
Image Attachment :
Image Preview
Mozart serenade c.jpg   235KB (image/jpeg)
This image has been viewed 326 time(s).
Back to Top

Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Gareth GreenAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943
  		   Posted 4/2/2013 4:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
kvehmane said...
The A's are totally playable; see this excerpt from Mozart Serenade in c minor (quickly made from Online Mozart, sorry) horn lines are marked with red line.
Might be that in Rameau's time players did not know how to hand-stop, but in any case the 7th partial is flat, maybe enough to pass for as an A...
Maybe so, but the question still remains, why bother, when the piece is in 'G', and you have horns in 'G' ... ?

 
Gareth J. Green
 
Fin2012c, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
 
Stolichnaya Blue
 

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)
 

 

Back to Top

kvehmane
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to kvehmaneAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 117
  		   Posted 4/2/2013 11:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Don't really know :-) but one explanition comes to mind: if the NEXT piece needed horns in F and it was attacca (no time to change). This is the case later in that Mozart piece I posted an excerpt from; Finale modulates to C major but horns are still in E flat. No time to change the lower crook and thus: many written A's to be played.
I agree totally that those Rameau parts are a piece of cake on horns in G and read a tone lower!
Back to Top

Motet
Isorhythmic



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to MotetAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
  		   Posted 4/2/2013 11:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One can find isolated As for hand horn, but they're rare.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

Back to Top

Harpsi
Registered Member



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to HarpsiAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495
  		   Posted 4/2/2013 3:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This piece starts attacca after one with horns in G. After it comes tacet. So I guess there is no good explanation to this, probably just a mistake. The horn players will know what to do anyway.

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

Back to Top

Motet
Isorhythmic



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to MotetAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
  		   Posted 4/2/2013 3:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Perhaps just a confused copyist.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

Back to Top

Harpsi
Registered Member



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to HarpsiAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495
  		   Posted 4/3/2013 7:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
...even two! :-)

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

Back to Top

Harpsi
Registered Member



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to HarpsiAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495
  		   Posted 4/3/2013 1:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For who is interested, I will post once more in this thread. I have found a plausible explanation to the mis-written horn parts.

During the Lullian era it was common that the composer (Lully among others) only wrote the top and bass parts. The filling parts, "les parties de remplissage", were left for the ensemble to improvise, or, as in the case of Lully, left to the copyist or some assistant to fill in. The information is a bit contradictory regarding Lully, because he is also known for being one of the first composers from that time to compose his own middle parts to make them sing as well as the outer. Anyway, the term "parties de remplissage" comes from this tradition. So the note on the top of the page with the Air Gay in G major, is merely an instruction for the copyist, and should not have been included in the copy. Maybe Rameau wrote out all the parts for the Air in the Ouverture, but provided only a shorthand in this place - he transposed the top and bass parts, and wrote a note for the copyist to copy the filling parts from the F major version in the ouverture. The copyist did that, but due to failing competence, he did not only transpose the oboe, viola and bassoon parts one note up, he also transposed the horn parts. But he did not put in any extra sharps in the key signature, simply because horns never had any key signature.

So, if this theory is right, the horn parts on "the wrong line" are indeed the result of a copyist making a mistake.
This could be the reason to the mistake.

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

Back to Top

Per Ottar Gjerstad
Registered Member

Click to send Per Ottar Gjerstad email.Personal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Per Ottar GjerstadAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Sep 2000
Total Posts : 132
  		   Posted 4/3/2013 11:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sounds completely plausible!

Per Ottar Gjerstad
Mac Book Pro 15"

Back to Top
You cannot post new topics in this forum. You cannot reply to topics in this forum. Printable Version
37 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :  1  2 
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 7:45 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2023

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual