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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > A Clarinet key signatures | Forum Quick Jump
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Edward Windels
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Jan 2011
Total Posts : 238
| Posted 6/24/2016 6:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | Windows 7 Finale 2014.5
If my piece is in Eb, and my clarinets are showing up in Gb, how do I change them to F#? "Simplify the key" isn't doing it. | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 6/24/2016 6:54 PM (GMT -6) | | If the piece is in Eb, you should be using Bb Clarinets.
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 10, 12GB RAM, frequently RTFM.
If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
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Edward Windels
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2011
Total Posts : 238
| Posted 6/24/2016 7:06 PM (GMT -6) | | | Thanks, Flint: neither practical under the circumstances, nor the answer I'm looking for. | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 6/25/2016 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | That's my impression, too (a perennial question here is "how can I get six flats instead of six sharps for Bb clarinet/trumpet in concert E major?"). But I can envision cases where six sharps might be preferable, such as where the music is headed from the key of concert Eb to concert Ab. You'd probably want the A clarinet to wind up in B major, not Cb major, so maybe starting in F# major would be more graceful.
(Likewise, Bb clarinets may not be available, or the passage may be in the middle of a piece where A clarinets are preferable overall and there's not time to switch. One doesn't know, so I always try to answer the person's question.)
Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 6/25/2016 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Motet said...
(Likewise, Bb clarinets may not be available, or the passage may be in the middle of a piece where A clarinets are preferable overall and there's not time to switch. One doesn't know, so I always try to answer the person's question.)
If you have 5 seconds, you can usually change between A/Bb. Unless the clarinets are playing the very last note of the previous movement and the very first note of the new movement, there is time.
EDIT: Or, you can change before the end of the prior movement. You can also start the movement on one clarinet and change to another once there is sufficient time.
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 10, 12GB RAM, frequently RTFM.
If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
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Edward Windels
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2011
Total Posts : 238
| Posted 6/25/2016 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | In this work, Flint, (a reduction of a one act two hour opera) after much deliberation and discussion with players, switching between instruments seems the less ideal solution: I don't need the color differentiation, and would rather not be risking the intonation of constantly picking up an instrument grown cold. Ironically, the original is written almost entirely for Bbs, but it's so chromatic and I need the low Dbs on both instruments, so sticking permanently to A's seems overall more practical.
Gareth and Motet: with the score being so chromatic, and the occassional key signatures being largely for show, I've though of that too, but in this one Eb passage the number of double flats is getting absurd. Or else I just transpose bits and pieces here and there up a diminished second and leave the Gb signature. It's probably six of one / half of dozen of the other, but Motet's solution was the one I was looking for: it's been a while since I did it.
Thanks, all. | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 6/25/2016 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | I do a lot of opera, which often modulates all over the place mid-act and occasionally I need the clarinets to play the less-ideal instrument. There may not be time to switch, or the foray into troublesome keys may be brief.
I admit that, not being a clarinettist, I'm sometimes guessing, though. What is a good rule of thumb for the time to switch mouthpieces and blow some air into the instrument? For concert C major, which instrument would you prefer?
Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 6/25/2016 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 6/25/2016 12:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Motet: C major could go either way, the Bb Clarinet will be in D and the A Clarinet will be in Eb, either of which are fine. Ideally, you could use a C Clarinet, but at this point those are almost extinct.
I would base my choice on the material itself in that case... specifically, I would look at passages around the break and check for excess chromaticism. The choice would come down to the feasibility of either what the little fingers are doing (whether it's a knotty finger puzzle), or if there is excessive use of left first finger keys (F#4, G4, G#4, A4, Bb4), which can also be a finger puzzle.
Motet said...
What is a good rule of thumb for the time to switch mouthpieces and blow some air into the instrument?
It depends on whether the clarinetist physically moves the mouthpiece, moves the mouthpiece and barrel, or if they have two separate set-ups.
If they are using two separate mouthpieces/reeds, 5-15 seconds to put down the old horn, pick up the new horn, ensure the reed is moist, and blow a bit of air should be fine.
If they are moving both the mouthpiece and barrel, add just a few seconds more.
Switching only mouthpiece takes the longest and is the most dangerous... if the reed becomes misaligned, it will take an additional 30-40 seconds just to get everything in working order again.
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 10, 12GB RAM, frequently RTFM.
If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
Post Edited (Flint) : 6/25/2016 12:08:13 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 6/25/2016 1:33 PM (GMT -6) | | | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 6/25/2016 1:35 PM (GMT -6) | | My carpets are being cleaned, so I'm trapped in the computer room.
I've produced this handy-dandy chart for choosing a clarinet:
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 10, 12GB RAM, frequently RTFM.
If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
Post Edited (Flint) : 6/25/2016 1:44:41 PM (GMT-5) Image Attachment :
clarinetchooser.jpg 101KB (image/jpeg)This image has been viewed 267 time(s). | | | |
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N. Grossingink
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991
| Posted 6/25/2016 4:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks, Flint.
Being a trombonist, I never thought to ask and thought there was a certain amount of black magic associated with choosing which clarinet. You've at least set the basic idea out for us non-clarinetists to ponder.
N.
OSX Mavericks 10.9.5
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1970—New York, New York: Times music critic Harold Schoenberg says, “Trombone players are like ministers—quiet, dull, very moral. Nobody ever heard of a rebellious trombone player.” | | Back to Top | |
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N. Grossingink
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991
| Posted 6/25/2016 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Motet said...
Is the slide work more difficult in E major, for example?
No, not really. The slide work is most difficult the lower in range you go - you're having to negotiate those lower partials in 5th, 6th and 7th position.
For example, playing chromatically from 2nd line bass clef Bb to D a 3rd higher, the positions go 1, 7, 6, 5, 4. An octave higher, they're 1, 4, 3, 2, 1. An octave higher yet it's 1, 2, 1, 2, 1. Of course, we have our F valves on horns so equipped that do make a big difference especially in the low register in providing alternate locations for many pitches with the valve depressed. In the upper register, there are numerous notes available in alternate positions without the valve but on different partials.
N.
OSX Mavericks 10.9.5
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work
Finale 2014.5
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale
1970—New York, New York: Times music critic Harold Schoenberg says, “Trombone players are like ministers—quiet, dull, very moral. Nobody ever heard of a rebellious trombone player.” | | Back to Top | |
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RMK
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 1999
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 6/26/2016 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Moving the barrel--then, during a switch, the player must guess how far on to push the barrel, which explains the holding it up and looking I see them doing. Obviously, this works out OK, though.
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In my 45 years as a professional clarinetist (30 of them in a large regional orchestra) I have yet to see anyone use the same barrel on B-flat and A. First of all, one usually uses a *shorter* barrel on the A (standard is 65mm) than B-flat (standard is 66mm). They may also be acoustically different, depending on who made the barrel (professional clarinetists rarely use a stock barrel). Ditto with mouthpiece/reed.
IMNSHO I would say 15 seconds is the absolute minimum for switching horns. 5 seconds is ridiculously short. I couldn't make a switch to E-flat (which obviously uses a different mouthpiece/reed) in that short amount of time.
BTW, we routinely play B-flat parts on A and vice versa for a host of different reasons (don't want to play a solo on a cold horn, not enough time to switch, technical facility, etc.) | | Back to Top | |
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RMK
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 1999
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 6/26/2016 2:03 PM (GMT -6) | | | Yes, mouthpieces need to be pushed in all the way, otherwise there will be severe intonation issues. | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 6/26/2016 2:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Modern clarinets (like the latest Buffet's) are built so that the same barrel can be used on either horn.
I use two separate setups since my horns are a) old, and b) not the same manufacturer. For me, since there is no disassembly involved, it's literally just a few seconds to drop one off on my clarinet stand and grab the other.
Once I have ~$15k to blow on a new matched set, I'll let you know otherwise... 
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 10, 12GB RAM, frequently RTFM.
If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
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