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Percival Hoselton-Maniago
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 154

Posted 9/24/2016 12:51 AM (GMT -6)

Finale 2012. All notes below the trumpet's low A do not playback in my score. I'm using Garritan ORCH TRUMPET 1, 2, 3. I've tried ORCH TRUMPET SOLO; still no low notes. I have note range set for advanced. These missing notes DO play when I select KS Jazz Trumpet and Aria. Thank you.

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 9/24/2016 5:26 AM (GMT -6)

Go to your Aria player and check out the range there. You will find that the GPO trumpet does not go below Ab, but the JABB trumpet does. That is because the engineers who built the system did not include recordings of a trumpet playing that low.

Out of curiosity, I checked the ranges of all the Garritan trumpets and found that the JABB, COMB, and GIFF trumpets all go down to E, while the GPO and GPO5 trumpets only go down to Ab.

BTW, changing the range setting does not affect what notes can be played back. All that does is turn notes yellow if they are outside of your selected range.

Finale 25

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Jolora
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 684

Posted 9/24/2016 7:57 AM (GMT -6)

Ron. said...
JABB, COMB, and GIFF trumpets all go down to E, while the GPO and GPO5 trumpets only go down to Ab.

If it is critical that you use the ORCH trumpets, then you can edit the .sfz files that come with GIFF to add the notes below Ab. It can seem a bit tricky for the uninitiated, but it really isn't difficult. Search the Forum for ".sfz" or examine the file(s) to see what needs to be done.

You DO need redo this change if/when you update Finale. You cannot simply make copies of the files and use them with the new installation (but you can save off the sections of the files you edited,and incorporate that into the new .sfz files.

The files to edit are in ...\Instruments for Finale\Programs\002. Brass\2. Trumpets, wherever Finale has installed GIFF on your system.

Joe

Finale v1 through 2014.5
JW Plugins; TG Tools (Full)
Garritan GPO 4; GPO 5; Garritan COMB 2; Garritan JABB 3
Anvil Studio 2015 midi editor
PhotoScore Ultimate 8
Band-in-a-Box

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel i7-4771, 32GB RAM, 500GB SSD (C Drive)

Percival Hoselton-Maniago
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 154

Posted 9/24/2016 8:00 AM (GMT -6)

Hi, thank you, Ron. That pretty much explains things. I'm so glad there's no bug in my Finale! Interesting, about the range setting really not affecting actual notes; I think I have, kind of subconsciously, noticed that all this time. Good to know. Thanks again.

Percival Hoselton-Maniago
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 154

Posted 9/24/2016 8:06 AM (GMT -6)

Jolora, I have done a little of this sort of modifying but have forgotten how. So, I'll study on what you've offered if I find I must use the ORCH trumpets. It's just a couple notes in the piece; so I guess not critical to use ORCH. Thank you.

Jolora
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 684

Posted 9/24/2016 8:14 AM (GMT -6)

If you've done it before, it should come right back to you once you open the files.

Flint
silly bear

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151

Posted 9/24/2016 12:56 PM (GMT -6)

Comedy answer: I sit right in front of the trumpets, they shouldn't play below middle C anyway, it's a flabby and unfocused sound.

woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 10, 12GB RAM, frequently RTFM.

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 9/24/2016 1:18 PM (GMT -6)

If this is Bb trumpet, it almost sounds like whoever devised GPO looked in some reference, saw F# as the lowest trumpet note, and decided that concert F# was the lowest they needed to provide. We've seen similar ignorance before with A clarinets not having a low E.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 9/24/2016 1:35 PM (GMT -6)

GPO does not have an A clarinet sampled. It's simply the Bb written as an A clarinet. So it's not a question of ignorance, it's a question of not including a redundant full set of samples for an instrument. They could have dealt with the A clarinet issue by simply recording an extra bottom note and including it in the Bb clarinet.

Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries) under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943

Posted 9/24/2016 1:47 PM (GMT -6)

Flint said...
Comedy answer: I sit right in front of the trumpets, they shouldn't play below middle C anyway, it's a flabby and unfocused sound.

Hmmm ... try telling that to Shostakovich ...

[In fairness, I hate having to play down in that register, and I'm not afraid to admit I'm not very good at it.]

Gareth J. Green

Fin25
Windows 10 (under duress ... )

Flint
silly bear

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151

Posted 9/24/2016 2:20 PM (GMT -6)

Gareth Green said...

Flint said...
Comedy answer: I sit right in front of the trumpets, they shouldn't play below middle C anyway, it's a flabby and unfocused sound.

Hmmm ... try telling that to Shostakovich ...

[In fairness, I hate having to play down in that register, and I'm not afraid to admit I'm not very good at it.]

Our orchestra just played a John Williams Olympic piece (one of dozens...), and the first theme was trumpets and horns doubled in the horn's best register.

It was the first time I doubted John Williams' orchestration. T'was terrible, the trumpets ruined the whole effect.

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 9/24/2016 2:25 PM (GMT -6)

Not realizing that the A clarinet has a lower note, which is essential for orchestral writing, or that an orchestra uses A clarinets at all, is indeed ignorance. Ditto the low notes on a trumpet. It sounds like they didn't consult a professional conductor or professional musicians (the P in GPO); a reference work can be misunderstood.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 9/24/2016 2:38 PM (GMT -6)

actually, the P in GPO is for "personal": Garritan Personal Orchestra.

Jetcopy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2000
Total Posts : 4795

Posted 9/24/2016 3:00 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
Not realizing that the A clarinet has a lower note, which is essential for orchestral writing, or that an orchestra uses A clarinets at all, is indeed ignorance. Ditto the low notes on a trumpet. It sounds like they didn't consult a professional conductor or professional musicians (the P in GPO); a reference work can be misunderstood.

I don't believe there was any ignorance involved. GPO was never intended to be the definitive orchestral sample library. There were many decisions about what was to be included or not included. I remember Garritan addressing these issues on his old forum. Back when GPO was first introduced, he even worked out a discount for GPO owners, for purchasing samples from the Vienna Library Collection for users who needed additional instruments.

Retina Macbook Pro OSX 10.9.5, 2.5GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, El Capitan on separate drive

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 9/24/2016 3:47 PM (GMT -6)

I stand corrected, Michel. But I thought GPO was the "professional" verison and GiFF the "lite" version.

I don't see it as a matter of additional instruments, as for instance if you wanted an alto flute, but rather an oversight by not using the full range of the instrument. I can't imagine there as a practical reason for leaving the lowest few notes off of clarinet and trumpet. Nor any jusification--they're very common notes.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Percival Hoselton-Maniago
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 154

Posted 9/24/2016 4:49 PM (GMT -6)

I'm one with no keyboard skills. Thus Finale is my keyboard. So I go with the best sounding of the choices, which, for open trumpet seems to be ORCH. To me, much of the beauty of any instrument is its entire range. It's fun to exploit that in writing. As a trumpeter--well, a has been, anyway--I love to use the lowest notes, nice and fat and in tune, to add contrast in soloing. Blah, blah, blah... It isn't always, yes, hehehe, but it can be a gorgeous sound. Too bad it just doesn't exist in ORCH.

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 9/24/2016 4:56 PM (GMT -6)

Percival Hoselton-Maniago said...
I'm one with no keyboard skills. Thus Finale is my keyboard. So I go with the best sounding of the choices, which, for open trumpet seems to be ORCH. To me, much of the beauty of any instrument is its entire range. It's fun to exploit that in writing. As a trumpeter--well, a has been, anyway--I love to use the lowest notes, nice and fat and in tune, to add contrast in soloing. Blah, blah, blah... It isn't always, yes, hehehe, but it can be a gorgeous sound. Too bad it just doesn't exist in ORCH.

Afraid I don't know what library you mean when you refer to "Orch." The only libraries that don't go below Ab are these two: GPO and GPO5. GIFF (which comes free with Finale) goes down to E.

Finale 25

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Jolora
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 684

Posted 9/24/2016 6:37 PM (GMT -6)

Flint said...
Comedy answer: I sit right in front of the trumpets, they shouldn't play below middle C anyway, it's a flabby and unfocused sound.

In Bizet's "Carmen," he writes the opening passages for brass in the lowest register, with a low Eb concert for the A trumpets in the 7th measure, and actually omits what would be an even lower note (off the horn) in the 8th measure. The entire opening sounds great, to this trumpeter's ears. But one's orchestra must have excellent players to really pull this off (especially if they do not have A trumpets!).

Percival Hoselton-Maniago
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 154

Posted 9/25/2016 12:56 AM (GMT -6)

Ron. said...
Afraid I don't know what library you mean when you refer to "Orch." The only libraries that don't go below Ab are these two: GPO and GPO5. GIFF (which comes free with Finale) goes down to E.

I was being lazy. ORCH Trumpet in Garritan. I forget what GIFF stands for, by the way. How would I access it? Thank you.

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 9/25/2016 2:03 AM (GMT -6)

Do A trumpets even exist anymore? I think opera orchestra trumpets play the Carmen opening on Bb trumpets and pull some slides out.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Jolora
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 684

Posted 9/25/2016 8:39 AM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
Do A trumpets even exist anymore? I think opera orchestra trumpets play the Carmen opening on Bb trumpets and pull some slides out.

I have never seen anyone manufacturing them in the U.S. Cannot say for Europe or the U.K. They have all sorts of amazing brass variations over there.

"Pull some slides out?" Can't say I've ever heard of that, and it wouldn't be all that effective anyway. Just leave out the impossible notes. That's actually what Bizet did for his A trumpet parts..

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 9/25/2016 8:39 AM (GMT -6)

GIFF = Garritan Instruments for Finale. They are automatically installed when you install Finale and are the default, unless you have changed your priority list.

These trumpets (except the piccolo) all go down to E.

Finale 25

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Jolora
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 684

Posted 9/25/2016 8:45 AM (GMT -6)

Ron. said...
GIFF = Garritan Instruments for Finale. They are automatically installed when you install Finale and are the default, unless you have changed your priority list.

These trumpets (except the piccolo) all go down to E.

This is where the ORCH trumpets are located, the GIFF library. We chatted about this years ago, Ron. You needed to select the "Jazz Trumpet KS" instrument to get the Mute KSs to work.

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 9/25/2016 8:47 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Joe,
My memory is not what it used to be, so if we had discussed calling the trumpets in GIFF "ORCH" I'm afraid I don't recall that.

Finale 25

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Jolora
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 684

Posted 9/25/2016 9:15 AM (GMT -6)

Ron. said...
Hi Joe,
My memory is not what it used to be, so if we had discussed calling the trumpets in GIFF "ORCH" I'm afraid I don't recall that.

Didn't mean it as a slight. Earlier in this thread, you mentioned you weren't sure where the ORCH trumpets were. Even in F25, the GIFF trumpets are labeled "Jazz," "Orch.," or "Band" (which I believe indicates from which library, JABB, GPO, or COMB, the instrument is taken. Well, there is also a "Piccolo Trumpet" patch, so that must be from GPO. There is no sound called simply "Trumpet."

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