|
|
| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Plug-In Development - FORUM HAS MOVED! > New Beta plug-in: JW Change v0.27 | Forum Quick Jump
|
         |  Jari Williamsson Registered Member
        Date Joined Dec 1998 Total Posts : 3246 | Posted 2/17/2012 1:49 PM (GMT -6) |   | | |
  |  KennethKen Registered Member

       Date Joined Dec 1998 Total Posts : 2570 | Posted 2/17/2012 7:24 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Jari Williamsson said...
KennethKen said... What about something like "Undo What You Did With The Vertical Level Command"? In this case, I think it's better that the user creates a (one-step) Sequence with the wanted reset functionality. I was afraid you were going to say that. So if I want to reset a bunch of different articulations to their defaults I'll have to write a sequence that includes each articulation with its original vertical and horizontal setting. Since Finale ships with various articulations having different default vertical and handle positions this would be a rather tedious sequence to create (even worst if someone has changed the defaults for their file - you couldn't reuse the sequences you had already made for the "out-of-the-box" settings.
I think people will be surprised that the BACKSPACE keystroke actually provides quicker functionality than a Williamsson plugin!  Of course, if they were hoping to use the filters in your plugin to speed selection of the articulations then they'll have to do the math to see what takes longer - lasso-ing all the particular articulations that they want and hitting BACKSPACE vs writing a sequence for accents, staccatos, etc.
Is there a symbol or number that can be typed in the plugin that means "reset to whatever this element's default is" so that we wouldn't have to put specific numbers in for the different articulation sequence(s)?
Ken
I still think people will be surprised to see their articulations move when they apply "Clear Position". "Clear" usually means "back to factory settings" which in Finale's case is usually not "0". A common application would be if a person manually moved (or received a file with moved) articulations and wanted to reset a bunch of them in a selected area. There may be some that are already in their default position and some that have been manually moved. A user sees "Clear Position" and thinks they can just use that to put everything back to the default only to fine out this is not the case. Something like " Set to 0" is not as elegant as " Clear Position" but much clearer, more predictable and the results less confusing (and possibly more practical). Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 920@2.67Ghz, 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc. | | Back to Top | |
  |  KennethKen Registered Member

       Date Joined Dec 1998 Total Posts : 2570 | Posted 2/16/2012 10:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
I don't know how easy it is to add fonts to the font lists in the plugin (e.g., noteheads/fonts, articulations/fonts, etc.) but here are a few that I've found useful over the years.
MetTimes, MetHelvetica (not show but by the same vendor), Metronome, DVMarticulations, Kidnotes
CrescendoFLF, GraceNotesFLF
Ken PS Why are MaestroWide, EngraverFontExtr, Maestro Percussion in the lists?
Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 920@2.67Ghz, 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.Post Edited (KennethKen) : 2/16/2012 9:14:02 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
 |  KennethKen Registered Member

       Date Joined Dec 1998 Total Posts : 2570 | Posted 2/16/2012 8:30 PM (GMT -6) |   |
- I have a measure with an upstem 1/8 note and a downstem 1/8 note.
- The 1st note has a staccato under it and the 2nd has an accent over it.
- I run Articulations/Horizontal Position with "50" input in the box. Everything moves to the right as expected.
- I run Articulations/Vertical Position with "50" input in the box. The staccato moves down and the accent moves up. I suppose this makes sense as the number increases the distance the articulation is away from the notehead (of course a large negative number would do the same in the opposite direction). However, you may want to clarify the movement in this command's description. Someone could easily think that inputting "50" should move everything in one direction - up 50EVPUs - and -50 would move everything down.
- I run Articulations/Clear Position. The articulations don't go back to their "original" positions - the positions they were in before I moved them with the other commands.
It appears that this command is equivalent to setting the vertical and horizontal positions to "0" which is, apparently, different from their defaults. This is not intuitive and it looks like a bug. To get them back to their default position I have to select the articulations and hit the BACKSPACE key. I would expect the "Clear Position" command to be equivalent to hitting the BACKSPACE key (i.e., removing manual or plugin enacted positioning). "Clear Position" certainly doesn't "Reset manual positioning of the articulation" as its description says - it actual "sets" it to 0. (The "re" implies a return to a previous setting.)
Ken
Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 920@2.67Ghz, 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.Post Edited (KennethKen) : 2/16/2012 8:05:53 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
 |  KennethKen Registered Member

       Date Joined Dec 1998 Total Posts : 2570 | Posted 2/16/2012 8:20 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Jari Williamsson said... "Clear Position [Horizontal]" - how's that? I would like the function names to be consistent, but I also agree with your point.
That's clear. I understand the desire to keep things consistent. Just remember that this can be misleading if the command doesn't do the same thing as it does elsewhere. E.g., "Articulations/Clear Position" clears both horizontal and vertical adjustments (see my next post for some surprising behaviour) whereas "Rests/Clear Position" does not clear both horizontal and vertical adjustments. The two commands don't do the same thing so they shouldn't be titled the same. I think your idea of "Clear Position [Horizontal]" is a good mix of consistency and distinction.
Jari Williamsson said...
KennethKen said... Along those same lines where is the analog, "Clear Vertical Level"? I don't believe there would never be an agreement among users on what's a "cleared" vertical rest really is. For example: in music with just occasional very small sections with multiple layers, I personally believe that the default/cleared state of rests still is at the standard position (not at the layer option vertical position).
What about something like "Undo What You Did With The Vertical Level Command"?
"Clear Position [Horiztonal]" is like an undo for the "Horizontal Position" command. There should be an easily recognizable one for the "Vertical Level" command (without the user having to go through Finale's undo list and undoing everything that he did since it was applied).
At the very least, it may be helpful to have in the description for "Vertical Level" a clue to the command that will undo it (e.g., "Applying the Rests/Placement Style/Floating will undo this command".) But if it's not too much work I think having a separate command - like "Clear Position [Horizontal]" - is easlier for the user.
Ken
PS I assume putting all these clearing/resetting commands in this plugin within the same container as the command that makes the initial adjustment is out of the question...?
Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 920@2.67Ghz, 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc. | | Back to Top | |
  |  KennethKen Registered Member

       Date Joined Dec 1998 Total Posts : 2570 | Posted 2/16/2012 5:34 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Thanks for the new beta Jari! I'll go through more of it this weekend. On a quick look, I think "Vertical Level" is much better and more specific than "Placement" (although it does sounds a bit "odd"). Can the "Clear Position" heading be clearer with requiring me to open the container to see that it's just able to do horizontal clearing. Wouldn't "Clear Horizontal Position" be clearer from the beginning?
Along those same lines where is the analog, "Clear Vertical Level"? I kind of know where it is from our exchanges on this board but the average user may not. I think their first instinct will be like mine was (and still is) - to look in the "Clear Position" container. Of course, but using the word "Level" instead of "Position" you have made a little distinction between the two functions but I don't know if a user will pick that up. For the sake of argument let's say they do recognize the distinction before the go searching. Wouldn't the logical place for a resetting of the vertical level be underneath that container in a container titled "Clear Vertical Level"? I'm not sure anyone will naturally look in the Placement Style container, especially if , by the same argument we just used, using the word "Displacement" in "...+Clear Displacement") draws a distinction from "Level" in "Vertical Level".
Furthermore, "Floating (+Clear Displacement) and "Floating" both appear to clear the vertical leveling. So which one does the user apply. Could there be a "Clear Vertical Level" command added under "Vertical Level" that uses the correct one (even if it is a duplicate of one of the "Floating" commands). I think this would make things easier for the user to find and understand. The fact that it clears the vertical leveling by re-floating rests and is the duplicate of "Placement Style/Floating..." can be discloased in its description.
Ken
Still like Vertical Position better. Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 920@2.67Ghz, 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc. | | Back to Top | |
     |  KennethKen Registered Member

       Date Joined Dec 1998 Total Posts : 2570 | Posted 2/14/2012 12:14 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Jari Williamsson said...
KennethKen said... "Placement" still exists under Rests instead of "Vertical Position". Is this intentional? (all the other elements have both horizontal and vertical position.) Yes, that's intentional. "Vertical Position" for rests are saved to the day MM adds vertical EVPU adjustments of rests. But Beams should not have horizontal position, Entries should not have vertical position, and Stems should currently have none, if the plug-in behave correctly. I understand the logic from a developer/programmer's point of view Jari, but I don't think your user base would be thinking that way. Please allow me to try to convince you to change Placement to Vertical Position - at least within the context of rests:
- A user opening the Change plugin is looking to do something specific. If they want to move rests up/down they could think of a number of titles to look for including "Placement, Vertical Placement, Position, Vertical Position, Move Vertically, Move Up/Down, Transpose, etc." Of course we've already been through this
. However, if they see "Horizontal Position" under this element or other elements I believe it is nature for a user to then look for "Vertical Position" if he wants to move something...well...vertically. As a user, it would never occur to me that the name would be something else simply because it uses a different unit of measurement! In fact, I wouldn't even remember that vertical rest movement only uses one unit of measurement until after I stumbled on the right title - but by then I've already looked for the logical counterpart to Horizontal Position (Vertical Position), not found it and poked my way through "Placement Style" and "Placement" reading the description of each just to see if I'm using the right thing. Units of measurement is something a user deals with/thinks about when they're about to input the numbers, not when they're trying to trying to find the right command. Your naming convention presupposes an understanding that I don't think users will have.
- Vertical Position tells the user with more specificity what the function does, especially since Placement Style is already in use and a user can easily get confused with Placement vs Placement Style (Yes, users should investigate all commands they see and RTFM
but my point is that the more intuitive title from the user's perspective is usually the best.). What is more important to the user's ability to find what they need when they open the plugin? - a title that distinguishes the actual function of one command from another or a title that simply distinguishs what unit of measurement a command's unclarified function may or may not use?
- Why wait until MM adds vertical EVPU adjustment of rests to use the most natural title? When/if MM does that will you then change the title of the command - which will further confuse people who have gotten used to the old name. If MM ever does add that functionality perhaps you could allow users to change the unit of measurement from within the command's options (ratios or dropdown box) rather than having two separate places (e.g., Rests/Placement for spaces, Rests/Vertical Position for EVPUs) and rather than confusing people by renaming Placement. In fact, you may not even need to add anything.
Currently, parts of your plugin allow users to switch units of measurement on the fly by typing the letter after the number they input (e.g., With Noteheads/Vertical Position typing 2e will move the notehead up 2 EVPUs, 2i will move it up 2 inches, 2s will move it up 2 spaces, etc.). Why not setup Rests with "Vertical Position" now so that if MM adds that functionality there wouldn't need to be an interface change that the user has to deal with? The fact that a user would go into Rest/Vertical Position now and would only be able to move them by spaces won't bother a user (at least the name wouldn't) - we've been adjusting the vertical position of rests using spaces for a long time and only expect movement by spaces.
Ken
Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 920@2.67Ghz, 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc. | | Back to Top | |
 |  Jari Williamsson Registered Member
        Date Joined Dec 1998 Total Posts : 3246 | Posted 2/11/2012 5:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | KennethKen said... "Placement" still exists under Rests instead of "Vertical Position". Is this intentional? (all the other elements have both horizontal and vertical position.)
Yes, that's intentional. "Vertical Position" for rests are saved to the day MM adds vertical EVPU adjustments of rests.
But Beams should not have horizontal position, Entries should not have vertical position, and Stems should currently have none, if the plug-in behave correctly.
KennethKen said... The "Relative" checkbox option under "Rest/"Placement" doesn't seem to do anything.
That's correct. It isn't hooked up in this beta. It'll be in the release notes when the functionality is in place. Probably in the next beta.
KennethKen said... Do you mean "Articulation resize now resize to the % of the default articulation font size for the document"?
Yes, that's correct. Sorry for the confusion.
KennethKen said... Is there a logic to the order the main elements are listed (i.e., Notes, Noteheads, Rests, Stems, etc.). Most popular elements to be edited first maybe? With 11 elements already list and hopefully more to come (Ties, Clefs, Chords, Textboxes, Lyrics smilewinkgrin ) it would be helpful simply to do aphabetical order - like the document options DBX. (Although the dropdowns in the Doc/Opt DBX is still a mess - Doc/Opt/Fonts/Noteheads, in particular).
I have placed them in the way I feel about their importance. Chords edits are already available, but it's at the bottom since that isn't important to me. Alphabetical order is a good suggestion.
KennethKen said... BTW Why aren't Ties included in this plugin?
Ties are available in the plug-in, but not yet available in the current betas. I don't feel the functionality of Expressions and Ties are currently mature enough to be tested. Jari Williamsson
Windows XP, Pentium 4 2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM
www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips sitePost Edited (Jari Williamsson) : 2/11/2012 4:31:55 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
 |  KennethKen Registered Member

       Date Joined Dec 1998 Total Posts : 2570 | Posted 2/10/2012 10:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | Is there a logic to the order the main elements are listed (i.e., Notes, Noteheads, Rests, Stems, etc.). Most popular elements to be edited first maybe? With 11 elements already list and hopefully more to come (Ties, Clefs, Chords, Textboxes, Lyrics ) it would be helpful simply to do aphabetical order - like the document options DBX. (Although the dropdowns in the Doc/Opt DBX is still a mess - Doc/Opt/Fonts/Noteheads, in particular).
Ken BTW Why aren't Ties included in this plugin?
Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012, Core i7 920@2.67Ghz, 6GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc. | | Back to Top | |
 | 168 posts in this thread. Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | | Forum Information | Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 6:32 PM (GMT -6) There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads. In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3 dotNetBB © 2000-2023 |
|
|