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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 10/1/2009 8:46 AM (GMT -6)

MusicAlly said...
Willijax had some excellent points that you didn't bother to acknowlege - I'm sure he'll start a new thread.

As I said, I am happy to address his concerns in a new thread, where his problems will not be lost in the noise.

As for the rest of your remarks - now you're just trolling. It's not that I "don't care to acknowledge" your use of Simple or Speedy: it's just you didn't tell us whether you had! Now that you have told us, I am delighted to acknowledge it.

If you want help with something, then you will find plenty of people who are happy to provide it. If you want to ignore the advice, and irritate people: well, that's your loss.

I'm not sure why you find it funny when I say that I can be faster in Simple Entry than playing in real-time. I meant it factually. My apologies if you thought any of my post was rude, arrogant or snobbish (whatever that means in this day and age). I'm trying to help you get the most from your software. What are you doing?

Finale 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.1
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Wiggy) : 10/1/2009 8:50:58 AM (GMT-5)

SAJ
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 646

Posted 10/1/2009 9:48 AM (GMT -6)

KT, this thread has become a repetitive exchange between you saying you want Hyperscribe to work and other posters explaining why it doesn't. It isn't because Hyperscribe is sloppy software that needs to be enhanced, it's because the idea itself is impractical. As I understand it, the dilemma is quantization. If you make it too coarse, shorter notes are garbled. If you make it too fine, inadvertent variations in tempo are misinterpreted. There isn't a setting that avoids both hazards, unless one is entering very dull music. I don't see a way around that, because the machine can't read your mind and know what you meant. You spend more time correcting the resulting mess than you would have spent entering it another way. And Brian has pointed out other problems that can occur even if Hyperscribe gets the timing right.

Finale and other notation programs include this function because users who don't know better demand it, but then they inevitably discover that it isn't as efficient as they hoped, and that some combination of keyboard(s) and mouse is the quickest way to enter a clean score after all. So yes, you can say we all "paid for" Hyperscribe, but only in the same sense that when we bought Windows we paid for a lot of odds and ends on the Accessories menu because somebody out there wanted them. I also paid for SmartMusic, XML, and a lot of plug-ins that I've never used. But I'm satisfied with the value of the functions that I do use constantly.

Finale 2010, GPO 4, Alesis QS8
Windows XP SP2

Flint
silly bear

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151

Posted 10/1/2009 10:12 AM (GMT -6)

MusicAlly said...

Honestly, I don't know how many more ways a person could play a 4/4 measure with two half-note chords with an 1/8 note quantize setting and have the damn thing continuously display it wrong!!

Obviously you've never played in a chamber ensemble with a mediocre pianist.

woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

"It is the job of copyist/arranger/composer to not only make the music clear and readable, but to also make it impossible to play incorrectly." - paraphrased from Bill Duncan

Saffron
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 4504

Posted 10/1/2009 10:36 AM (GMT -6)

Or been a brilliant pianist trying to accompany a mediocre chamber ensemble (/choir/singer/...)!

Brian

Flint
silly bear

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151

Posted 10/1/2009 10:50 AM (GMT -6)

Ahh... "Singer's 3/4" (alternatively known as "Dancer's 3/4")

One, Two, Three (pause)
One, Two, Three (pause)

woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

"It is the job of copyist/arranger/composer to not only make the music clear and readable, but to also make it impossible to play incorrectly." - paraphrased from Bill Duncan

Saffron
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 4504

Posted 10/1/2009 10:53 AM (GMT -6)

Flint said...
Ahh... "Singer's 3/4" (alternatively known as "Dancer's 3/4")

One, Two, Three (pause)
One, Two, Three (pause)

And of course, the choreographer's tempo, which is either "too fast" or "too slow"! lol

Brian

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 10/1/2009 11:29 AM (GMT -6)

still can't beat trying to show someone how to foxtrot...
teacher: "it's slow, slow, quick quick..."

student: (dancing and speaking the words) "slow... slow... quickquick... [pause]... slow.. slow... quickquick... [pause]...."

Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2010
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010
Full GPO, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello, Garritan Concert and Marching Band
Win XP

Michel R. Edward

Tom Williams
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 170

Posted 10/1/2009 12:14 PM (GMT -6)

...Or PDQ Bach's dances, from which Shickele deduced that the composer probably had one leg shorter than the other.

Seriously, though, although I have a highly-ingrained sense of pulse (which cost me a letter grade in conducting class as waving the baton too stiffly; and also which maddens gospel singer who waaaant to do everythiiiiiiiing rubaaaaah - - toe), I know that I also tend to rush or lag as the blood pressure changes.

I can usually get HS to work at around 40% tempo if I pay close attention especially to note endings. But they're still tricky -- If you're just shy of that last sixteenth note, HS can justifiably conclude that you played a dotted eight instead of a half.

-Tom Williams
PrintMusic 2009, Alesis Fusion, Thinkpad R52

Buddy Cox
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 1999
Total Posts : 54

Posted 10/1/2009 11:24 PM (GMT -6)

To avoid latency problems, do not use computer generated sounds. Use a midi devices (default midi or USB) for entry and playback. Turn off the 'MIDI thru' feature. Do not watch the screen as you play as you will only see dots on the staff. I use my Yamaha Portable Grand Piano DGX-500 to listen to what I play and listen to the click track through the midi in of the Piano. Midi data flows so fast that there are not real latency problems using mid in and out with a midi device. Using this method, hyperscribe works as advertised.

Buddy

Windows XP SP2, Pentium 4, Protikeys, Band-in-a-Box, Power Tracks Pro,Yamaha 88 key controller, undefined

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Trumpet, Flugelhorn, Piccollo Trumpet, Yamaha Midi Sax undefined

Ken Zeller
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 33

Posted 10/1/2009 11:53 PM (GMT -6)

Buddy Cox said...
To avoid latency problems, do not use computer generated sounds. Use a midi devices (default midi or USB) for entry and playback. Turn off the 'MIDI thru' feature. Do not watch the screen as you play as you will only see dots on the staff. I use my Yamaha Portable Grand Piano DGX-500 to listen to what I play and listen to the click track through the midi in of the Piano. Midi data flows so fast that there are not real latency problems using mid in and out with a midi device. Using this method, hyperscribe works as advertised.

Buddy, thank you for the helpful post - do I turn off thru on the keyboard or in Finale?

KT
Finale 2009a,b,c
PC 3.0Ghz Intel - 2G RAM - WinXP sp2
Edirol PCR-500 - Yamaha Motif XS8 - Korg FP8 - Kawai RX-2

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 10/2/2009 2:11 AM (GMT -6)

MusicAlly said...
Any business that is interested in the opinions and concerns of it's customers on the use of it's product will eventually place a forum on it's public website as MakeMusic has done. If a company is truly interested in the opinions of it's customers then they will appoint employees to observe and comment on posts and offer tips/articles/blogs/references to other posts and take some of the more pertinent concerns to the software designers to be dealt with in the upcoming updates and new releases. These moderators serve as a bridge between the company and it's customers. It's a tried and true formula that works. Maybe MakeMusic should take a more hands-on approach in this forum and harvest the treasure trove of comments and complaints that are posted here in order to address the issues that seem to be a part of their product. I've read so many posts by users here who seem to think that Finale is a product that does not address some of the ongoing problems and offer bug fixes in their yearly upgrade releases - even though many of the bug fixes should be offered as a free upgrade.

Yeah, I must agree completely here. A lack of communication is a downside of MM.
Some mentioned: If you have a problem you can call.
Yes, If you live in USA, it is ok. But ALL people don't live in USA. And I use only my mobile. Don't watch everything from just one perspective.

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 10/2/2009 8:54 AM (GMT -6)

octoechos,

You are overlooking the fact that MM staff do watch what goes on in the forum and have always had someone designated to monitor full-time (like Scott is doing now). We even had a comment a few years ago from the CEO. Sometimes when I have posted a problem on the forum, a member of MM's staff has emailed me directly and helped work through the problem. Another thing: every year forum members put together a group letter describing what new features they'd like and what bugs they would like addressed. MM takes that letter seriously and responds to it.
And if you can't phone, you can always send an email to MM staff and they will respond.

What more do you and MusicAlly want? Please be specific.

Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com

Finale 2010 with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0,
Jazz & Big Band, and Concert & Marching Band

TGTools Pro
Win XP/Pro, Intel Core 2 Quad, 4 GB RAM

Creative XFi Xtreme Music sound card

Administrator, The Compose Forums http://www.composeforums.com/forum/Default.asp

Where composers come together to discuss music. Check it out.

Ken Zeller
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 33

Posted 10/2/2009 9:19 AM (GMT -6)

Ron. said...
octoechos,

What more do you and MusicAlly want? Please be specific.

Specifically, I asked tech support for piano as a choice of instrument in the excercise wizard as shown in the tutorial videos. Fred says no such luck - can't be done - passed on to development. I wonder how many yearly releases of Finale have gone by with that bug left untouched? I have also asked about this as the first post in this thread. One user suggested I abandon the idea of using the excercise wizard and create an exercise with simple or speedy entry. This kind of defeats the whole purpose behind the exercise wizard doesn't it?

Also, forum moderators who take a hands-on approach to users comments and questions - offering advice, assistance in the thread rather than just privately. I'm sure everyone would benefit - especially those, like me, who came on to the forum and searched for answers, finding none.

It would be nice if some long-time forum members would take the time to address the problem at hand and offer suggestions rather than continuously tout why Finale is the greatest just because they've been using the program since the eighties. I know this will ruffle a few feathers but if you read some of the comments on this thread you'll see why this is pertinent. I had asked for help with Hyperscribe and received so many replies that specified that I shouldn't even bother with it. Well, what's the point of Hyperscribe then?

Finale 2009a,b,c
PC 3.0Ghz Intel - 2G RAM - WinXP sp2
Edirol PCR-500 - Yamaha Motif XS8 - Korg FP8 - Kawai RX-2

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 10/2/2009 11:11 AM (GMT -6)

MusicAlly said...

It would be nice if some long-time forum members would take the time to address the problem at hand and offer suggestions rather than continuously tout why Finale is the greatest just because they've been using the program since the eighties. I know this will ruffle a few feathers but if you read some of the comments on this thread you'll see why this is pertinent. I had asked for help with Hyperscribe and received so many replies that specified that I shouldn't even bother with it. Well, what's the point of Hyperscribe then?

If you had taken the time to READ the responses you got, you would understand WHY Hyperscribe exists, and WHY it does not fulfill you every need.

You got an IMMENSE amount of helpful information.

Just because it was not the answer YOU WANTED does not mean they were not helpful answers.

You didn't "ruffle feathers" through your questions.
You ruffled feathers through your arrogant and rude responses to VERY helpful posts from fellow forum users.

What's the point of Hyperscribe? It's been there for a long time.
At one point, there was hope that the technology would catch up and be able to DO what Hyperscribe promised in more than a rudimentary fashion.

Unfortunately, music being what it is, Hyperscribe only really works well with the simplest of music.
ALL of this has been carefully explained to you in this thread, with numerous examples.
Hyperscribe works for some things.
It doesn't work for other things.
That's the nature of the beast (music, not Hyperscribe).

No one here has "touted Finale" as the "greatest" while using their years of experience as a proof of said claim.
What you DID get was all these users' years of experience and their best suggestions for getting the most out of Finale.

Again, it's too bad it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

Flint
silly bear

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151

Posted 10/2/2009 11:58 AM (GMT -6)

EDIT: nevermind, why bother.

woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

"It is the job of copyist/arranger/composer to not only make the music clear and readable, but to also make it impossible to play incorrectly." - paraphrased from Bill Duncan

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 10/2/2009 12:11 PM (GMT -6)

MusicAlly said:

"Also, forum moderators who take a hands-on approach to users comments and questions - offering advice, assistance in the thread rather than just privately. I'm sure everyone would benefit - especially those, like me, who came on to the forum and searched for answers, finding none."

They do. You just haven't been around long enough to notice that and you don't know the names of the support staff who help out. Let's try to be reasonable for a change: You have NO experience with this forum. You post a problem, and when it wasn't addressed within two hours you throw a temper tantrum and accuse MakeMusic staff and users on this forum of letting you down.

I have spent hours trying to find a solution for some problems, but, I assure you, next time you post a problem I will not spend so much as a second on it and I am sure that some other members of the forum feel the same way.

Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com

Finale 2010 with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0,
Jazz & Big Band, and Concert & Marching Band

TGTools Pro
Win XP/Pro, Intel Core 2 Quad, 4 GB RAM

Creative XFi Xtreme Music sound card

Administrator, The Compose Forums http://www.composeforums.com/forum/Default.asp

Where composers come together to discuss music. Check it out.

Saffron
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 4504

Posted 10/2/2009 12:12 PM (GMT -6)

Hey, Michel, what the heck are you doing?!!! freaked

I'd just typed in a long response along almost exactly those lines - ie, "why didn't M-ally read, think about, comprehend, blah blah ..." those posts he is complaining about - not least one of mine, in which I try to explain exactly why this is an intractable problem.

But you got there first. So I've zapped it.

We've gotta stop doing this! lol

Brian

SAJ
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 646

Posted 10/2/2009 1:52 PM (GMT -6)

KT, I guess in all the uproar everyone overlooked your question about MIDI Thru. Assuming Buddy meant the Finale setting, you'll find it under the MIDI/Audio menu. I don't have 2009, so I can't say exactly where; in 08 it's MIDI/Audio->MIDI Thru, in 10 it's MIDI/Audio->Device Setup->MIDI Thru.

Finale 2010, GPO 4, Alesis QS8
Windows XP SP2

Ken Zeller
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 33

Posted 10/2/2009 2:00 PM (GMT -6)

SAJ said...
KT, I guess in all the uproar everyone overlooked your question about MIDI Thru. Assuming Buddy meant the Finale setting, you'll find it under the MIDI/Audio menu. I don't have 2009, so I can't say exactly where; in 08 it's MIDI/Audio->MIDI Thru, in 10 it's MIDI/Audio->Device Setup->MIDI Thru.

Sigh, I guess this is my rude, arrogant response: Thanks :)

Finale 2009a,b,c
PC 3.0Ghz Intel - 2G RAM - WinXP sp2
Edirol PCR-500 - Yamaha Motif XS8 - Korg FP8 - Kawai RX-2

PeterQD
Win Fin v2 - 2009

Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 507

Posted 10/2/2009 2:38 PM (GMT -6)

Out of interest, I checked the Exercise Wizard in 2009 and sure enough, it is not possible to select a piano. In the instrument list the Keyboards group has been omitted, although they are there in 2005 and 2007. Someone might like to check in 2010.

KT - don't jump down my throat, this is meant to be helpful:
It is possible to edit the file "Exercise Wizard Default.ftm" in the C:\Program Files\Finale 2010\Component Files folder to create a piano grand staff. If all your exercises are for piano it might be worthwhile for you to do this. You can add the bass clef staff, create the group and add the bracket. You can also add the part name (Piano) and set up the playback instrument too if you wish. These changes will be present each time you create a new lesson. If you want to preserve it, move the old default file to another folder, and then save the revised version in its original place using Save As, selecting a template file (.ftm) as the filetype. The wizard only creates notes in the treble clef staff so you'll need to add the left hand yourself if you need it.

18 years and still learning...

Ken Zeller
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 33

Posted 10/2/2009 4:18 PM (GMT -6)

Ron. said...

MusicAlly said:

Ron - if you don't spend another second on this thread - as I'm sure there are plenty of members who would appreciate that as well - then that would be fine by me.

You just seem to be hanging around so you can take personal shots at me as I justifiably complain about the software. If no one was allowed (in your world, I suppose) to complain about software then why have a forum? Why don't you start a "shiney, happy people holding hands" thread and limit your posts to pictures of fluffy animals?

Finale 2009a,b,c
PC 3.0Ghz Intel - 2G RAM - WinXP sp2
Edirol PCR-500 - Yamaha Motif XS8 - Korg FP8 - Kawai RX-2

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 10/2/2009 4:39 PM (GMT -6)

Your complaint is completely unjustified. I am just trying to set the record straight, but you don't seem to be interested in that. All you appear to want is to slam MakeMusic and this forum and to read anything that does not conform with your opinion to be "pot shots."

Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com

Finale 2010 with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0,
Jazz & Big Band, and Concert & Marching Band

TGTools Pro
Win XP/Pro, Intel Core 2 Quad, 4 GB RAM

Creative XFi Xtreme Music sound card

Administrator, The Compose Forums http://www.composeforums.com/forum/Default.asp

Where composers come together to discuss music. Check it out.

Ken Zeller
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 33

Posted 10/2/2009 4:42 PM (GMT -6)

Ron. said...
Your complaint is completely unjustified. I am just trying to set the record straight, but you don't seem to be interested in that. All you appear to want is to slam MakeMusic and this forum and to read anything that does not conform with your opinion to be "pot shots."

My point has been confirmed. Ron, are you going to leave this thread yet?

Finale 2009a,b,c
PC 3.0Ghz Intel - 2G RAM - WinXP sp2
Edirol PCR-500 - Yamaha Motif XS8 - Korg FP8 - Kawai RX-2

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 10/2/2009 4:46 PM (GMT -6)

Nope. I've been around here since 2003 and I'm not going anywhere. I've dealt with folks who are far more obnoxious than you.

Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com

Finale 2010 with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0,
Jazz & Big Band, and Concert & Marching Band

TGTools Pro
Win XP/Pro, Intel Core 2 Quad, 4 GB RAM

Creative XFi Xtreme Music sound card

Administrator, The Compose Forums http://www.composeforums.com/forum/Default.asp

Where composers come together to discuss music. Check it out.

Ken Zeller
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 33

Posted 10/2/2009 4:50 PM (GMT -6)

Ron. said...
Nope. I've been around here since 2003 and I'm not going anywhere. I've dealt with folks who are far more obnoxious than you.

Lol, you're kind of obnoxious, too, Ron! I think I like you! ( but you could still leave the thread if I bother you that much!)

devil KT

Finale 2009a,b,c
PC 3.0Ghz Intel - 2G RAM - WinXP sp2
Edirol PCR-500 - Yamaha Motif XS8 - Korg FP8 - Kawai RX-2

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