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Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 12/1/2013 12:39 PM (GMT -6)

I'm making an arrangement for string bass and piano. The bass is playing in high solo tuning and so will be reading as a D instrument but in the higher octave, in other words, a seventh higher than pitch. This is cumbersome and requires lots of clef changes in the part. I'd like the pianist to be able to read at concert pitch. How do I prevent the clef changes I need in the part from showing up in the score?

Vaughan

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David Ward
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834

Posted 12/1/2013 12:46 PM (GMT -6)

I'm sure (hope anyway) there's a better way, but faced with this and without better advice, I might start by having both versions in the score and then hide the unwanted stave before final layout.

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/1/2013 12:53 PM (GMT -6)

Surely a Staff Style for the Clef changes in the parts will sort this out? Set the clef in the Transposition box.

"This is me helping."

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OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 12/1/2013 2:29 PM (GMT -6)

What is that string bass instrument that transposes in D?

I would use the same clef changes / transposition in both the score and part.

But if you really need another way, can't you extract the part on the end?

Or to make another part (hidden in score, printed as part) and use the copy-paste method between them?

Finale 2011c,OS X 10.6.8

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 12/1/2013 3:30 PM (GMT -6)

@ Wiggy: A Staff Style to hide the clefs won't hide the extra spaces needed for the clef changes in the part which I don't want to see in the score. At best it'll leave unsightly gaps.
@ OCTO: Some bassists tune F#-B-A-D (from bottom to top) for solo repertoire but finger as though they're playing the usual orchestral tuning (E-A-D-G). This results in a D transposition. It's an unusual transposition, it requires lots of clef changes and it'd just be confusing to most pianists. That's why I'd prefer to print this in concert pitch.

Oh well, I guess either extracting the part or creating a two bass staves, one transposing and one not, are the only solutions. Thanks for the input!

Vaughan

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Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/1/2013 3:31 PM (GMT -6)

You can unlink the part from the score for this purpose. Have you tried that? Use Set to Clef in the Score, unlink the part while in the Score Manager in the part. Don't Set to Clef in the part. The clef changes will show in the Part but not in the Score.

Zuill

P.S.: Here's a sample file. It uses the traditional transposition for the Bass in the Linked Part. The parts are still linked as far as note entry. It's just the Instrument (including transposition) that is unlinked. And Set to Clef in the Score prevents the clef changes from showing the change there.

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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Post Edited (Zuill) : 12/1/2013 3:58:46 PM (GMT-6)

File Attachment :
Double Bass Part Unlinked.musx 86KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 294 time(s).

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/1/2013 5:30 PM (GMT -6)

Vaughan said...
Some bassists tune F#-B-A-D (from bottom to top) for solo repertoire but finger as though they're playing the usual orchestral tuning (E-A-D-G). This results in a D transposition. It's an unusual transposition, it requires lots of clef changes and it'd just be confusing to most pianists. That's why I'd prefer to print this in concert pitch.

Wouldn't that be F#-B-E-A? Otherwise (with F#-B-A-D) notes on the higher 2 strings would be waaaaay off.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 12/1/2013 5:43 PM (GMT -6)

That looked good, Zuill, but I couldn't get it to work in my document. I've checked unlink part, used Set to Clef in the score but not in the part, and still the clef changes I add are either showing up in the score or the clef changes I want to have show in the score are getting screwed up.

Vaughan

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Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 12/1/2013 5:44 PM (GMT -6)

P.S. Yes, of course the tuning is F#-B-E-A. Sorry, I must be really tired!

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2014, Sibelius 4 - 7
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Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/1/2013 5:52 PM (GMT -6)

I didn't know you wanted clef changes in the score. Set to Clef won't allow that. Your original description said you didn't want to have clef changes show in the score, thus my setup. I'm not sure how to do the other, short of a staff style that overrides the Set to Clef in the score for those measures.

Zuill

P.S.: There is a way, but without seeing your score, I can't be certain. You would need to create 2 staff styles--one for Score only and one for Part only. The Score only style would be to over-ride the Set to Clef, and the Part style would apply it.

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 12/1/2013 4:58:26 PM (GMT-6)

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/1/2013 6:58 PM (GMT -6)

It was simple if you didn't need clef changes in the score. However, after thinking it over, if that is needed, having 2 separate staves is probably a lot easier. I generally go for easier.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 12/2/2013 3:15 AM (GMT -6)

I agree and I'm afraid that's the only solution, either that or extracting. When string bass players 'steal' other people's repertoire (especially cellists'), they often need to notate a really large range. This, in combination with strange transpositions, necessitates frequent clef changes, especially in the bass part but also, slightly less frequently, in the concert pitch version of the part for the piano. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2014, Sibelius 4 - 7
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MacOS 10.9
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Kiki
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 105

Posted 2/12/2015 1:07 PM (GMT -6)

I have somehow a similar probem.
In my score the tuba part is written in Bass Key, without any transposition.
But I made this part for a tuba player that is used to read in Treble Key and with Bb transposition.
How can I keep my score as it is and change the settings in the tuba part without extracting it?
I don't understand exactly, Zuill, what you mean by "Use Set to Clef in the Score",
and I have not been able to open the Double Bass Part Unlinked.musx file with Finale 2012.

Kiki
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 105

Posted 2/12/2015 1:20 PM (GMT -6)

... And is it possible to use different staff attributes for score and parts?
Like hide/show chords, lyrics etc

michelp
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 2232

Posted 2/12/2015 1:54 PM (GMT -6)

Kiki said...
But I made this part for a tuba player that is used to read in Treble Key and with Bb transposition.
How can I keep my score as it is and change the settings in the tuba part without extracting it?.

Create a New Part, put the tuba in it, open the new part and in its Score Manager, use the checkbox "unlink All Instruments in this Part".
Then change its transposition to Bb and its clef. You will have 2 tuba parts, one similar to the one in the score (linked), and one in Bb (unlinked, but no need to extract it).

Michel
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Christopher Smith
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 2290

Posted 2/12/2015 1:55 PM (GMT -6)

Kiki said...
I have somehow a similar probem.
In my score the tuba part is written in Bass Key, without any transposition.
But I made this part for a tuba player that is used to read in Treble Key and with Bb transposition.
How can I keep my score as it is and change the settings in the tuba part without extracting it?
I don't understand exactly, Zuill, what you mean by "Use Set to Clef in the Score",
and I have not been able to open the Double Bass Part Unlinked.musx file with Finale 2012.

The answer to all your questions is Staff Style. To have it apply only to the part, be in the part view, select the passage (or everything in the part!) right click and choose "Apply to current part/score..." and then select the staff style.

Christopher Smith

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N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 2/12/2015 1:59 PM (GMT -6)

Kiki, I would add a stave in the score that shows the treble clef transposition and copy over the bass tuba stave. Hide this stave with a Staff Style and apply it to the score only. That way you can have separate staff attributes for both staves as well as a linked treble and linked bass clef part.

N.

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Kiki
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 105

Posted 2/12/2015 3:58 PM (GMT -6)

Thank you everyone for all those good advices.
I tried he New Part method, it works fine, but then I need to copy the first part with the mirror tool to be still able to edit it,
and I am not so confortable with this.
I tried also to change the Layer style of the Tuba Part.
I defined a new style including transposition and Treble key, and this works very well.

Ronwass
bassist/composer/arranger/conductor/bandleader

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1492

Posted 2/12/2015 4:36 PM (GMT -6)

Vaughan, can't believe I didn't chime in on this to help you back when you first posted. I'm a bass player you know. Was your project successfully typset? Is there anything I can help you with at this late date?

Ron Wasserman
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Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 2/15/2015 5:09 AM (GMT -6)

Hi, Ron. Thanks for chiming in, even after a couple of years!

I finally ended up extracting the part. It seemed easier to do it this way, partly because of the strange transposition and partly because of the problems involved with consistent bass clef in the score (suono reale) and the use of changing clefs in the bass part (reading up a seventh). Even if I suppressed the clefs (with a staff style), Finale would still space the music for them.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2014d, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.10.2
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB

Amsterdam

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