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Writer of Music
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848

Posted 11/28/2016 6:51 AM (GMT -6)

Since today Finale will no longer draw the smart shapes that I would like to use, but instead draws P.M.------- everywhere (the one smart shape I'm absolutely sure I have never ever used anywhere ever). The smart shape tool shows the shape that I would like to use as 'selected' (slur, crescendo, whatever), but Finale draws P.M.------- regardless.
Rebooting Finale makes no difference whatsoever.

One thing I must admit: never a dull moment with Finale. Too few productive ones as well, but that's a lament I have futilely published here may times before.

EDIT: rebooting the Mac did the trick.
Drawing a diminuendo should have taken me two, three, four seconds on a slow day. I now have spent at least a quarter of an hour (this rant excluded) trying to get Finale to do what it should have done in the first place.

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Post Edited (Writer of Music) : 11/28/2016 6:01:14 AM (GMT-6)

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 11/28/2016 6:59 AM (GMT -6)

That really sounds like the virtual (or literal) stuck key syndrome. Usually restarting Finale helps and, if not, the computer.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 11/28/2016 7:01 AM (GMT -6)

This sounds like the "Virtual Stuck Key Syndrome". I have found that most times you need to shut down and restart the computer to clear things. This can also affect the Expression Tool. Click anywhere and you'll get the same random expression.

N.

OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls

Writer of Music
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848

Posted 11/28/2016 7:03 AM (GMT -6)

Fortunately all the rest was fixed with the recent upgrade and update, right? Oh wait…

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 11/28/2016 9:31 AM (GMT -6)

It's been my experience that the problem crops up once or twice in a year. However, it may happen 2-3 times on a given day, after which it goes into hibernation.

N.

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 11/28/2016 12:22 PM (GMT -6)

For me it only happens on Tuesdays when the moon and Jupiter are in conjunction.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 11/28/2016 12:25 PM (GMT -6)

I don't think you can blame this one on Finale.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Writer of Music
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848

Posted 11/28/2016 1:42 PM (GMT -6)

Now that would be a shame. To whom then should I send my worst wishes?

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Mike Halloran
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2009
Total Posts : 105

Posted 11/28/2016 2:14 PM (GMT -6)

Many apps and plugins have memory leaks—this could easily be a symptom of not enough RAM being available.

Rebooting is the best way to clear the available RAM but this will clear some of it. Run the following command in Terminal. It will ask for your admin password. You can automate this in any macro application including Applescript.

sudo purge

If not rebooting daily, get in the habit.

There are many commercial and freeware apps that can check available RAM (I use TechTool Pro to check). I was appalled to find that, of the 20G I had installed in my iMac, I often had only 3G available; 12G after running sudo purge and 15G after a reboot.

Anyway, I upgraded to 32G RAM and I've been symptom-free since. I no longer purge RAM except to give results. Just now, I currently have 17G free with only a browser running logged into about 100 sites. After running sudo purge, it went to 21.7G available. On reboot, I normally start with 25.4G available RAM.

Mike Halloran

Finale 25.1 & 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.0.7
2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad w/ OWC eSATA mod, 20G RAM, OS 10.12.1, 2T SSD
DP 9.1, 8.07, 7.24, Logic Pro X 10.2.4, DSP-Quattro, PSP, IK, NI, Eventide, Izotope & Antares plugins
G4 running OS 10.4.11 & 9.2 with legacy apps

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 11/28/2016 2:44 PM (GMT -6)

You might be right: I've never experienced the sticky key bug, and I've got 16GB of RAM. (I rarely restart or relaunch Finale, though.) Finale does certainly hang on to more memory as it gets used and not relinquish it.

However, OS X is designed to use as much ram as possible. Having "lots of free ram" is not something to be desired in itself. The OS will cache as many things into ram as possible, to improve performance, and when ram is full, it will start increasing memory compression. It's actually quicker to "zip" data in ram than to offload it to the disk. The colour chart in Activity Monitor shows "Memory Pressure". If it's green and low, you've got nothing to worry about. If it's high and red, then you're likely to see a performance drop and you could try a purge or restart.
Purging ram when there's no memory pressure could actually reduce performance, as the data has be loaded from disk again.

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Dr. Wiggy) : 11/28/2016 1:54:54 PM (GMT-6)

Mike Halloran
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2009
Total Posts : 105

Posted 11/28/2016 4:21 PM (GMT -6)

There are reasons that the OS caches memory, just like you say. If, however, there's very little available RAM, Finale and many other apps have issues. Not like this isn't very easy to test.

I no longer run sudo purge since I moved to 32G RAM. No need on my system. I also reboot daily and have ever since I upgraded to an SSD a couple of years ago (before, it took 20 minutes for my iMac to get ready for work—now about 45 seconds). Anyway, I no longer have those issues.

Writer of Music
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848

Posted 11/28/2016 4:42 PM (GMT -6)

I shut down the computer every night when going to bed and boot it every morning for a new day of work. The anomaly described above occurred immediately after booting Finale in the morning when there could have been very little build up of possibly leaked memory yet.

System requirements according to MakeMusic:
Minimum 2 GB of RAM, 4 GB and above recommended

Surely, 8 GB of RAM should allow Finale to work properly. I wonder how anyone can expect Finale to work on 2 GB of RAM when 8 GB already is problematic.

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

MikeHalloran
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 217

Posted 11/28/2016 6:49 PM (GMT -6)

Writer of Music said...
I shut down the computer every night when going to bed and boot it every morning for a new day of work. The anomaly described above occurred immediately after booting Finale in the morning when there could have been very little build up of possibly leaked memory yet.

System requirements according to MakeMusic:
Minimum 2 GB of RAM, 4 GB and above recommended

Surely, 8 GB of RAM should allow Finale to work properly. I wonder how anyone can expect Finale to work on 2 GB of RAM when 8 GB already is problematic.

Of course, you do nothing else on your Mac including use the internet or get email, right? Ok...

In my case, I start Chrome and the Apple email client in the morning for my day job, nothing else. You've seen my RAM requirements. To clarify, I normally log into 80–100+ web sites automatically so my browser's memory requirements are more than most.

This got me to thinking so, just now, I grabbed my iPad, went into my office and ran a few tests. The iPad is so that I can record the results here as I run them. Here goes:

First, I rebooted without mail or a browser. I opened 25.1 and opened a 14 measure, 5-part vocal piece that uses the Aria player to load one of the included voice patches. I pressed Play so that it would load. I then checked available RAM to find I had 27.7G out of 32. Rebooting, I did the same in 2014.5 and found 27.1G available RAM—makes sense given that 25 is 64bit.

Rebooting, I opened one window of Safari plus Mail. My available RAM was 26.7G; adding F-25.1 with that same file reduced it to 25.4G. I closed Safari and Finale, rebooted and opened Chrome which logged into 118 sites on three monitors. My available RAM is now 20.1G. This includes the driver for my USB monitor and whatever TechTool Pro is using.

I am only speculating that RAM might be your issue. What is certain is that I no longer experience the problems you describe but, before I maxed out my iMac a couple of months ago, I did.

Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

Writer of Music
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848

Posted 11/29/2016 6:05 AM (GMT -6)

In other words, MakeMusic's 'system requirements' are ludicrously optimistic, to use but an optimistic approach.

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

MikeHalloran
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 217

Posted 11/29/2016 11:02 AM (GMT -6)

Writer of Music said...
In other words, MakeMusic's 'system requirements' are ludicrously optimistic, to use but an optimistic approach.

Everyone's is and assumes that you do not use a computer for anything else.

In the case of Finale, the leanest approach is to use MIDI to the Core Audio sounds and who wants to do that? Adding Garritan sounds, AUs etc. increases the overhead—by a lot if enough are used.

Apple uses virtual memory a lot but even when you are running an SSD, it's still slow by comparison to installed RAM. If running on an HHD, it's glacial.

I still have an early and a late G4. The early one maxes out at 2G while the late one maxes at 1.5G. The first G5s went to a whopping 8G for the dual processor and 4G for the single. The big RAM hog at the time was Photoshop and everyone complained about the ultra-slow rendering time when the app had to rely on VM.

And the beat goes on...

Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2011c, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.07, GPO 5
2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, Late 2013 MacBook Air, OS 10.12.1
MOTU Digital Performer 9.12, 9.02, Logic Pro X 10.2.4

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 11/29/2016 2:57 PM (GMT -6)

What the stuck key happens on the Mac, is it stuck on all applications, or just Finale?

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Writer of Music
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848

Posted 11/29/2016 4:45 PM (GMT -6)

MikeHalloran said...
Everyone's is and assumes that you do not use a computer for anything else.

Of course the machine is used for other processes as well (the OS itself, for starters), but aren't you assuming all too readily that I'm using the machine for probably more than might be reality?
I do not run Mail all day long, but check for mail on my iPod (which gives a signal when mail arrives) and only when mail needs to be answered, I 'll open Mail on the iMac. I do not run Safari or Firefox when I'm working in Finale. I do not run any other applications than the core applications that run whenever the machine is on and the one in which I'm working — in this case: Finale. 8 GB of RAM should be more than enough to draw a diminuendo.

If RAM would be an issue, other applications would be complaining as well — they don't. If RAM would be the cause for this anomaly to happen, it would also cause problems in other applications — it doesn't.

As far as I know, the OS will use virtual memory regardless of the amount of physical RAM installed.

I didn't run extensive tests in other applications when Finale ran amok, but I could use Safari, log in here, write the first message in this thread, go back to Finale, make a few other edits, quit and reboot the Mac without any problem whatsoever. As far as I have noticed, only Finale had a problem. I'm stil not sure where it comes from, what causes it and whether there is another solution to the problem but to reboot the system.

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

David Ward
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834

Posted 11/29/2016 5:25 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
What the stuck key happens on the Mac, is it stuck on all applications, or just Finale?

Just in Finale, the couple of times I've had it (not recently). Cured, in my case, by rapidly striking the relevant key quasi tremolo (while in Finale).

David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d & 2014.5 with Mac 10.9.5 & 10.11.6
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 11/29/2016 6:55 PM (GMT -6)

In that case, I guess I take back

I said...
I don't think you can blame this one on Finale.

Why so many, many more problems with Finale on the Mac than Windows?

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Writer of Music
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848

Posted 11/30/2016 7:08 AM (GMT -6)

David Ward said...
[…] Cured, in my case, by rapidly striking the relevant key quasi tremolo (while in Finale).

That would be a workable solution, far better at least than having to shut down everything and rebooting the entire system. Question is: what is the 'relevant key'?

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

David Ward
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834

Posted 11/30/2016 10:46 AM (GMT -6)

Writer of Music said...
… … Question is: what is the 'relevant key'?

Is there a metatool for P.M.…………? If yes, then that. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.

When it has happened to me, it was a reasonably easy to identify 'virtually stuck' metatool key; but there may be different types of incarnation for this phenomenon.

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 11/30/2016 1:09 PM (GMT -6)

Put a two-by-four on the keyboard and jiggle it up and down?

Is there any way to see smart shape metatools?

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Writer of Music
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848

Posted 12/1/2016 5:34 AM (GMT -6)

David Ward said...
If yes, then that. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.

Nope. That is, I never created a metatool for 'palm mute', worse yet: I never used that smart shape in the first place. Moreover, I never created any metatool for anything, ever.

The stuck key syndrome has been reported as far back as 2011 — perhaps even earlier, I only performed a quick Google search. Why does this problem (any many others) still exist?

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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