MakeMusic Forum

Home | Log In | Register | Search | Help

MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Lyric spacing problem Finale 2011b

Forum Quick Jump

27 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Jim Balentine
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 258

Posted 11/26/2010 1:33 PM (GMT -6)

I have just started using Finale 2011 and have an issue with lyric spacing - it seems that if a syllable is a bit long ("walls" in this case), and is a two note melisma of short values, lyrics don't space properly, and it gets worse the shorter the note values. It gets even worse if there are other complicating spacing factors (arpeggiation articulations in the piano) that take up space in the measure. I've attached the excerpt with other parts in the score, as well as the same vocal line alone, and the same line with even shorter note values.

I can fix it manually, but the new lyric improvements were supposed to have made it unnecessary to manually adjust things. Anybody have any idea if there's a setting I'm missing somewhere?

thanks.

Jim

Finale 2011b r.2 - MacMini 2.0 GHZ - OSX 10.5.8

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

lyric spacing problem.jpg 131KB (image/jpeg)

This image has been viewed 508 time(s).

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

vocal lyric alone.jpg 17KB (image/jpeg)

This image has been viewed 470 time(s).

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

vocal lyric altered.jpg 16KB (image/jpeg)

This image has been viewed 420 time(s).

Ansgar Krause
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 416

Posted 11/27/2010 8:26 AM (GMT -6)

It's probably the same as with TGTools New Spacing. The only way to program this has been to ignore syllables attached to notes that are followed by a note without syllable attached to it. So this can happen "by design".
Maybe one day they will find a solution for this.

Ansgar Krause

MacBook Pro 15", OSX 10.5.8 • Finale since 2.6.3 • Finale 2010b

Fonts: http://home.arcor.de/ansgarkrause/finalfonts.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-USGFEyUmY

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 11/27/2010 11:10 AM (GMT -6)

select measure and Cmd+4 may fix it?

...................
Finale 2011b, OS X 10.6.4 / MacBookPro & iMac 20" / Logic Studio 8, Peak Express 6 / InDesign CS4
INGLISH iz not maj modr-toung!

Jim Balentine
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 258

Posted 11/27/2010 11:23 AM (GMT -6)

No, Cmd 4 doesn't fix it. It must be an editorial comment - Finale just doesn't like my choice of notes to words, like Microsoft Word's squiggly green line when it doesn't like my grammar.

Finale 2011b r.2 - MacMini 2.0 GHZ - OSX 10.5.8

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 11/27/2010 12:03 PM (GMT -6)

I think that with lyrics spacing, there will always be a compromise between lyrics spacing and note spacing.

But I don't think you will always get the best result automatically. Sometimes you have to adjust these manually things to your satisfaction.

However, I don't think anyone can disagree that 2011's lyrics spacing is miles better and necessitates fewer interventions.

Finale 2011b, 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.5
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 11/27/2010 12:09 PM (GMT -6)

Jim Balentine said...
It must be an editorial comment...

Perhaps your competitors are able to control your copy of Finale from a distance...

Finale's spacing algorithms have a particular way of 'stealing' space from notation elements in a system to make room when asked to crowd things together. Apparently syllables on a melisma are one of the first. You can, of course, make everything collide if you try to squeeze too much onto a system. In other words and as far as this example is concerned, it looks as though, if left to its own devices, Finale would have put fewer measures on that particular system. Here are two examples of your excerpt, the first using Finale's own spacing layout and the second with an extra measure forced into that system. The first is fine, the second looks like your result.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 2011, Sibelius 4 - 6
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 5 plugin
MacOS 10.6.5
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (late 2008) 4GB
Kontakt 2, 3.5, 4.0

Amsterdam

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

spacing1.png 74KB (image/png)

This image has been viewed 503 time(s).

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

spacing2.png 72KB (image/png)

This image has been viewed 454 time(s).

Jim Balentine
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 258

Posted 11/27/2010 12:51 PM (GMT -6)

Vaughan,

Yes, that was one of the first things I checked - no systems were locked, I re-spaced and updated the layout, checked all the relevant places in Document Options, and my result did leave it to Finale's own devices. I can certainly fix it by forcing a measure out of the system onto the next page. That's why I was wondering if there might be something somewhere I am overlooking that I may have inadvertently selected to keep Finale from making it look like yours. How did you make your (my) first excerpt? - page view, with a full page of music? Mine has six measures across an 8 1/2 x 11 page, with a left margin of 1", right margin of .5", and the two 8th notes for the word "walls" look scrunched together, making "walls" appear too close to "and" - yours looks like it should, but I can't seem to make Finale do that by itself. If I force a measure onto the next page, leaving five measures in this system, it looks like yours, but I had to force it out.

Jim

Finale 2011b r.2 - MacMini 2.0 GHZ - OSX 10.5.8

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 11/27/2010 2:34 PM (GMT -6)

Try a slightly wider spacing algorithm. It's worth it to experiment with different spacing tables. I've made several of my own and they work very well.

Christopher Smith
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 2290

Posted 12/1/2010 7:25 AM (GMT -6)

Ansgar Krause has certainly understood it and given you the right answer. Even with all the improvements to the lyric tool, a situation like this still needs human intervention.

A few things I have liked recently: notice in your example any syllable with 4 letters or more aligns vertically to the SECOND letter, not the first, just like highly-experienced engravers do. Nice! However, it WON'T do it when a melisma is involved, like your word "walls", nor when a tie is involved. This is normal, but you might try manually nudging "walls" to the left to help solve your problem.

Another thing I like is when spacing gets tight, hyphens get closer and closer to BOTH halves of the word, then disappear when things are just too tight, just like an engraver would decide. In the past, this feature popped in and out sometimes between viewing onscreen and printing, but it seems to work properly now.

Christopher Smith

Mac 2 x 2 Ghz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
OSX 10.6
Finale 2011b
or
Mac iBook G4 733 Mhz
OSX 10.4.11
Finale 2010b r.1

loff56
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 75

Posted 1/8/2011 5:02 PM (GMT -6)

I was having a similar but ultimately different problem, so I was poking around here, and noticed that I was also having your problem. With some futzing with some Document Options settings I was more or less able to 95% solve your problem. (Though my original problem remains a mystery - and I think it's a bug).

Here's what you do:
open Document Options,
Select Music Spacing (what follows is my specific solution, but you can tweak as needed for your own documents):
Set "Minimum Distance Between Items:" to .04861 (I'm in Units: Inches btw)
Set "Minimum Distance Between Notes With Ties" to .02083
Click on "Spacing Widths..."
Make sure "These Values:" is selected
Set "Reference Duration:" to 1024 (quarter note duration)
Set "Reference Width:" to .02778
Set "Scaling Factor:" to 1

These settings should handle the longer word issues you are having, though I'm sure there are some really long words that will still be problematic. But I've got some six letter syllables with commas that are handled fine with these settings.

As for my original problem if anyone's interested:

It appears that most of the time (there seem to be strange exceptions that I can't put my finger on) if I have a lyric on a note (in the middle of the bar - it doesn't seem to happen if it's the first lyric of the bar) followed by a rest and at least one more rest or note the lyric preceding said rest will left justify as if it's going to have a word extension instead of center justify like it's supposed to. It doesn't matter if there are lyrics following the rest(s) or not, as long as it's not followed by just one rest to finish the bar. There's only one solution that seems to solve the problem. And that's if I put a real space (Option-Spacebar) on the rest following the problem lyric.
Is anybody else experiencing this issue? Finale 2011 (MacBook Pro) Latest updates for Finale and Snow Leopard etc...
I'm attaching PDF to demonstrate. (Bar 6 is a strange unexplained exception.)

File Attachment :
lyric problem.pdf 33KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 293 time(s).

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 1/9/2011 3:53 AM (GMT -6)

Loff56,

I would suggest that setting a Scaling Factor of 1 might produce very curious results. Most music is laid out on a factor of between 1.4 and 1.8.

Can you upload the document? I don't think I've ever seen this problem, but I suspect that some settings may be "off" for Lyric Syllable Alignment.

Finale 2011b, 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.5
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

loff56
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 75

Posted 1/9/2011 11:55 AM (GMT -6)

Ok - posting the file. This is the file that has my justification problem in it, but I believe it also has those settings that solved the original problem in it as well.
I hear what you're saying about the scaling factor, and honestly, I just attempted this recently. Haven't got any curious results yet, but I'll definitely keep an eye out for it. Though I have to say, I think setting the scaling factor to 1 was the main cog in solving the overlapping lyric problem associated with the original topic of this thread. Could you maybe elaborate on just what that scaling factor does and why setting it that way may cause some issues?

File Attachment :
lyric problem2.mus 93KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 376 time(s).

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 1/9/2011 12:28 PM (GMT -6)

First of all, can I clarify that the problem measures are m. 5 and 7? The word "Green" there does seem to stick out further than perhaps is desirable.

I use different alignment settings for Lyric syllables from those that you have in Document Settings. However, the problem seem to be best fixed by Lyrics > Adjust Syllables, then right click on the anchor for that syllable and change the justification to Center. Everything sorts itself out then.

The Spacing Factor relates to the distance between notes of different duration, so that the space after a minim will occupy 1.6 times the space of a crotchet (all other things being equal). If you have a factor of 1, then all notes will have the same spacing after them. (Obviously, how they are spread over a system will affect this.)

Finale 2011b, 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.5
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

loff56
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 75

Posted 1/9/2011 1:20 PM (GMT -6)

Yes, 3, 5 and 7 actually.
Thanks for the work around. The other work around that I found is to put in a "real space" (Option-Spacebar) in the following rest also fixes the problem. Although both of these work arounds are not universal. I'm beginning to suspect that it actually is a "bug". But out of curiosity, what are the settings on you lyric syllables? And if you replicate the music I have hear does the problem go away?

Thanks.

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 1/9/2011 1:23 PM (GMT -6)

In Document Options, I use:

Left Center
Center Center
Center Center
Center Left

I did try altering the syllables in your document, and the problem does go away.

Finale 2011b, 2009c, 2Ghz iMac; 2Ghz MacBook, 10.6.5
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410
Ancient Groove Music
www.ancientgroove.co.uk

chsinclair
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 13

Posted 2/3/2011 10:36 AM (GMT -6)

loff56

Yes, I'm having the same problem as you with syllable alignment. I think its a bug as well, considering the syllable spacing is fine in previous versions of Finale, but once an older document is saved in 2011 and respaced, the syllables you described are no longer centered like they should be.
The syllables look fine in 2011 before spacing, but become problematic once spacing is applied.
The document options settings aren't changing from a 2009 doc to a 2011 doc, therefore I think something is happening in the background during spacing to cause this.

The "workarounds" do work for me as well with adjusting syllables, but its a hassle having to look for all those instances when I never had to worry about it in the past.

loff56
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 75

Posted 2/3/2011 11:09 AM (GMT -6)

Update - A few weeks ago I forwarded the problem on to a copyist that has a connection with the Finale tech staff. According to them the problem is in fact a bug. So, I guess we'll have to wait and see if the bug is fixed in a maintenance update or in 2012. I'm not holding my breath for another maintenance update this year, so...

gracenote
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 339

Posted 2/4/2011 8:44 PM (GMT -6)

loff56 said...
Update - A few weeks ago I forwarded the problem on to a copyist that has a connection with the Finale tech staff. According to them the problem is in fact a bug. So, I guess we'll have to wait and see if the bug is fixed in a maintenance update or in 2012. I'm not holding my breath for another maintenance update this year, so...

Have you tried it with the C update yet? It improves the way the Palatino is handled for me.

I have noticed that fewer spacing problems occur with the font size at 12 and Times. What is your font size?

I don't mind manual adjustments but Finale decides to readjust them several times as you are work. It would be great if locking a measure actually locked the spacing adjustments as well. My solution is always to lock all measures and do the manual lyric adjustments as the last part of the process.

You can also try reducing your score by increments and see if that improves your spacing.

GN

Specs: iMac 20“ Intel, 2.4ghz, 4GB ram, OS 10.6.x Snow Leopard; iBook PPC 1.2ghz, 768M ram, OS 10.4.11

Finale 2011, Yamaha PSR 520, MIDIMAN 1x1

loff56
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 75

Posted 2/4/2011 10:30 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks GN,
I actually hadn't noticed that Finale released a C revision. Even manually asking Finale to "search for new updates" didn't come up with anything! Go figure. Anyway, The bug still exists in C.

I get what you're saying that making the lyrics smaller makes the problem of overlapping lyrics not as bad. But the incorrect justification bug still exists regardless of font size... and as I just tried, regardless of font too. Besides, I got to have the font size the way I need it and the score size and staff size etc... the way I need it too. Although, if Finale wants to start issuing magnifying glasses for my singers with their updates, maybe I'll consider that solution. LOL

My guess is they didn't have time to address this particular bug when they did the C revision.

Guess we'll have to wait for Fin2012! *sigh*

Wess
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 277

Posted 2/6/2011 5:47 PM (GMT -6)

In such situations may be the easiest way to manage the spacing is to do it manually or if you have TGTools simply select the fragment and press: [Shift] with [+] from num pad of the keyboard.
As you can see on my sample, the text needs some "extra effort" to stay properly well.
Image Attachment :

Text.png 152KB (image/png)
This image has been viewed 344 time(s).

gracenote
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 339

Posted 2/6/2011 5:49 PM (GMT -6)

loff56 said...
Thanks GN,
I actually hadn't noticed that Finale released a C revision. Even manually asking Finale to "search for new updates" didn't come up with anything! Go figure. Anyway, The bug still exists in C.

I get what you're saying that making the lyrics smaller makes the problem of overlapping lyrics not as bad. But the incorrect justification bug still exists regardless of font size... and as I just tried, regardless of font too. Besides, I got to have the font size the way I need it and the score size and staff size etc... the way I need it too. Although, if Finale wants to start issuing magnifying glasses for my singers with their updates, maybe I'll consider that solution. LOL

My guess is they didn't have time to address this particular bug when they did the C revision.

Guess we'll have to wait for Fin2012! *sigh*

I have also had success by making sure the problem word is aligned center using the lyric adjustment tool. ⌘ +4 and the problem is gone.

GN

Specs: iMac 20“ Intel, 2.4ghz, 4GB ram, OS 10.6.x Snow Leopard; iBook PPC 1.2ghz, 768M ram, OS 10.4.11

Finale 2011, Yamaha PSR 520, MIDIMAN 1x1

Jeff Hamburg
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1383

Posted 2/7/2011 3:14 AM (GMT -6)

wess-music said...
In such situations may be the easiest way to manage the spacing is to do it manually or if you have TGTools simply select the fragment and press: [Shift] with [+] from num pad of the keyboard.
As you can see on my sample, the text needs some "extra effort" to stay properly well.

I think wa-ha a-rets is one word. I don't know what the sound is (looks like what in English is an "sh") but it should be "ts".

Jeff Hamburg

MacBook 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS 10.6.6, Finale 2.0.1 --->2011c, 4 gb ram, 30" HP LP3065, EWQLSO Silver Play, XSample Chamber Ensemble, Edirol USB Audio Interface UA-1ex, Kontakt3, M-Audio Keystation88es

Post Edited (Jeff Hamburg) : 2/7/2011 2:33:25 AM (GMT-6)

Wess
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 277

Posted 2/7/2011 6:16 AM (GMT -6)

Jeff,

I have no idea what supposed to mean that. The original is based on "Psalm 121". As seen mixture of German, phonetics and some more languages.
The colleagues involving the phonetic transliteration of the Hebrew lyrics are going to proof read tomorrow. So, you might be right about he words, however I input all the settings from list!
Thanks!

Wess

Jeff Hamburg
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1383

Posted 2/7/2011 6:28 AM (GMT -6)

In English transcription it'd be something like this: ez-ri mei-im a-do-noi o-sei sha-ma-yim va-e-retz. The "ha' is wrong ("ha" is "the"). There is a distinction between "s" , "z" and tz" in Hebrew. It's the second line which translates: My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.

Wess
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 277

Posted 2/7/2011 7:56 AM (GMT -6)

Thank you, Jeff!

27 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2

Forum Information

Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 8:09 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual