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Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 11/21/2013 9:53 AM (GMT -6)

Hi all,

unless I've missed it (quite possible) Finale has never dealt with the question of octave transposing instruments in C scores. I'm talking about piccolo, contra bass, guitar, et al - the instruments that even in a C score are generally displayed at written, rather than sounding pitch.

In the past, I've made a fake clef for these instruments, and then had to go in and change the clef when making parts.

Is there now a better way of dealing with this? Is this by any chance something that came with the new keyless scores of Finale 2014?

Thanks for enlightening me!

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.6.8
4 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
Finale 2012

Bill Stevens
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 5408

Posted 11/21/2013 10:05 AM (GMT -6)

Please explain further what you mean by Finale failing to deal with the octave transposition. For instance, if you create a piccolo using the Wizard, what do you need that Finale is not doing automatically?

Bill

Finale 2014 (all versions since 1.0)
Mostly I use 2011c
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil with eraser
OS 10.9

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 11/21/2013 10:12 AM (GMT -6)

if you mean using the "display in concert pitch" option... that isn't meant to print your score. it's a utility for quickly going back and forth between transposed and concert pitch.

if you want a score "in C" then simply remove transposition from instruments that have transposition other than octaves. not particularly difficult nor counter-intuitive.

simply remember that "display in concert pitch does exactly that: it displays all instruments at the pitch where they sound. it does not "display a score in C".

if you want a score in C then simply set the correct transpositions (or rather, remove the default transpositions which Finale puts in) for the score.

Finale (started with ver. 3.0) 2010, 2011, 2012b installed
Win XP
basically ALL Garritan sounds, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 11/21/2013 10:14 AM (GMT -6)

I have generally handled this with Staff Styles designed to show in the score but not in the part.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014 now.

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Fred G. Unn
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 1268

Posted 11/21/2013 10:22 AM (GMT -6)

Zuill said...
I have generally handled this with Staff Styles designed to show in the score but not in the part.

Zuill

+1. It's fairly common for composers who write in concert pitch to write piccolo, guitar, contrabass, etc. transposed at the octave even though nothing else is transposed. I have one client who always works that way. He often actually wants two scores, one a concert score with those instruments transposed at the octave for himself, and one a regular transposed score for other conductors/publication.

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 11/21/2013 10:34 AM (GMT -6)

Staff styles! Why didn't I think of that. So then conceivably I should be able to do what Michael suggests above, but only in the part?

I do like the ability to toggle between concert and transposed score though, and I guess I would lose that if I followed this path.

It strikes me indeed as a failure that Finale doesn't leave bass, piccolo, guitar etc. parts alone when choosing "display in concert pitch." Nobody, and I mean nobody, wants to look at the ACTUAL sounding notes of those instruments ever, in any context. Wouldn't that be a simple fix?

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.6.8
4 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
Finale 2012

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 11/21/2013 10:36 AM (GMT -6)

Sorry - I attempted this, and now am confused about how to assign a staff style to a staff only in the score, but not in the part. Is anyone willing to unpack this a bit more for me?

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.6.8
4 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
Finale 2012

jlrathbone
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 65

Posted 11/21/2013 11:18 AM (GMT -6)

I set piccolo up using the G-clef with the 8 on top (E) in the list. Then I use the Transposition Tool "Set to Clef" and tell it to put the part in normal treble clef. No need to use house styles at all then. I do the same for Double Bass - using Bass clef with 8 at the bottom.

When you toggle between transposed and C-score, the piccolo and bass merely change clef. Makes it much easier to read.

Incidentally, although I used to play viola, I spend most of my professional life in front of choirs. So now set my strings up as if I'm looking at SATB (so violas have a singing tenors clef in the score - but a proper viola C-clef in the parts)

This all works fine unless you need to change clef in the real part for any reason. Then the whole thing becomes a staff styles problem!

Mac OS 10.7.5 Finale 2014 (Finale 2012c.r13)
User of Finale since version 1.6 (1989)!

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 11/21/2013 11:33 AM (GMT -6)

This is very helpful. I am still struggling a bit With Michael R.E.'s comment above - there is no mention in the Finale manual that Display in Concert Pitch isn't meant for printing, and I can't understand why that isn't exactly what it should be for. [I've always used it that way - and while it's clear that there may be better practices, I don't really see a good reason why that shouldn't be set up to work right.]

I will experiment with that idea jlrathbone - thanks!

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.6.8
4 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
Finale 2012

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 11/21/2013 11:40 AM (GMT -6)

Yes jr - this seems like a great solution. The only additional step I think I'll take is to create clefs without the 8s, so that I can easily toggle to an actually printable C Score (since it's not convention to print C Scores with those -8 clefs!)

This is a big help!

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.6.8
4 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
Finale 2012

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 11/21/2013 1:30 PM (GMT -6)

Actually, many conductors do want a concert pitch score. You can print it either way from Finale.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Jeremy Levy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 811

Posted 11/21/2013 1:45 PM (GMT -6)

I feel your pain. I work the same way on most film orchestrations. I've found the best approach is to take Finale out of the equation entirely. I host my samples in Plogue Bidule (running over midi), and then I can adjust octave transpositions on single midi channels at the instrument level. It's not the most intuitive way, but once it's setup in your template, it works flawlessly.

In the screen grab, this is a big band setup. Saxes and brass are on channels 1-16. Rhythm section on 17-32. You can see where I added an octave transposition for the guitar and bass.

Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

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Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 11/21/2013 2:07 PM (GMT -6)

Are we addressing print or playback? They are 2 separate issues. I use a hidden expression to get playback correct after applying the staff style, if that is needed.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Jeremy Levy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 811

Posted 11/21/2013 2:20 PM (GMT -6)

Hasn't playback always been the issue here? You can always set piccolo or bass to not transpose, that way they appear the same in concert and transposed scores. Getting playback in the right octave is the thing.

A hidden expression is a great idea, but I tend to scrub playback a lot, and it wouldn't effect pitch in that case. For me, fixing the patch is the best solution.

Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 11/21/2013 2:25 PM (GMT -6)

Shnootre said...
Hi all,

unless I've missed it (quite possible) Finale has never dealt with the question of octave transposing instruments in C scores. I'm talking about piccolo, contra bass, guitar, et al - the instruments that even in a C score are generally displayed at written, rather than sounding pitch.

In the past, I've made a fake clef for these instruments, and then had to go in and change the clef when making parts.

Is there now a better way of dealing with this? Is this by any chance something that came with the new keyless scores of Finale 2014?

Thanks for enlightening me!

This (in bold) is what I believe is the request.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Count of Monte Verdi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 615

Posted 11/21/2013 2:26 PM (GMT -6)

When producing a score in C, I work only in the "Display @ concert pitch" mode. When working on parts, I fix some octave transpositions, as well as clefs (Horns, Bass clarinet). Needless to say, I don't care for the linked parts.

rpmseattle
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 419

Posted 11/21/2013 2:35 PM (GMT -6)

Hi all,

The confusion about this request in this thread may perhaps highlight at least part of the reason Finale still hasn't addressed this. This is actually a very reasonable and simple request to follow common practice for concert pitch scores.

Here is the goal restated, and the associated problem(s):

1) It is common practice in modern Concert Pitch scores to have octave transposing instruments display at WRITTEN PITCH.
1b) Regardless of whether you are viewing the part or the score, the octave offset instruments should remain at written pitch when following this convention.
1c) e.g. Regardless of whether the score is showing transposed or in concert, these lines should always display in the score at written pitch.

Problem is, in order to display octave transposing instruments at written pitch, the display of the score in Finale must be set to Transposed. One can turn off individual instrument transposition for Contrabass, Piccolo, Guitar, Glockenspiel, Xylophone and various other mallet percussion instruments and display them at the correct location on the staff, but you lose playback at concert pitch if you do this.

There is currently no solution in Finale to display the score in Concert Pitch while following the convention #1 above, where the score will still play back correctly.

This practice has evolved because it allows the music to be written more within the staff in concert pitch scores. Interestingly, you won't always see this convention strictly adhered to in the same way for Contrabassoon; for some reason (Particularly in Finale scores), certain orchestrators have a habit of writing this particular instrument at concert pitch with ledger lines.

Instruments which are not octave offset are, of course, written with ledger lines as well (e.g. Tuba)

Currently in Finale, Octave transpositions are treated just like any key signature or chromatic transposition, which means the score always shows concert pitches in a concert score, and written pitches in the parts. However, for octave transposing instruments, a negative side effect of this is that either (a) playback or (b) notation display is incorrect in either parts or score.

This results in 2 major limitations - either concert scores won't play back correctly or they won't be displaying octave transposing instruments correctly to facilitate playback.

The second scenario is also a big negative as the user is prevented from keeping score and parts in the same file.

Currently, in a concert score, it isn't possible to show a concert score with correct playback and also show the octave transposing parts at their correct written pitches.

The ideal solution for Finale, of course, would be to follow common practice for concert scores, which is to always show these instruments at written pitches.

One could argue for inclusion of a checkbox in the Staff Transpositions dialog box that modifies octave transpositions "Always display octave transposing instruments at written pitch" - but since this is the common practice case, Finale *should* just do this by default, and at that point, there is no need to have an "octave transposition" in the Staff Transpositions dialog at all, unless someone wants to override the common practice scenario for whatever reason.

In case MakeMusic needs a statistic to validate who follows this convention, take the number of feature films Hollywood releases every year, multiply that by say 30-50 score cues for each film, and that would be the *minimum* number of scores annually in the United States for which this is a requirement.

forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=413646

Robert Puff

Finale 2012, 2011 | Mac Pro 8 Core Xeon | OSX 10.6.x
www.musicprep.com/makemusic
www.rpmseattle.com/of_note/category/finale/

Post Edited (rpmseattle) : 11/21/2013 2:35:16 PM (GMT-6)

Jeremy Levy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 811

Posted 11/21/2013 2:43 PM (GMT -6)

I second everything Robert just said. This used to be easy to deal with when the Garritan instruments used the Kontakt player. Setting an octave offset was simple. You can't currently do it with the Aria player.

The solution would be:

1. A toggle in Finale, as Robert suggested

or

2. A midi transposition option in the Aria player

Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 11/21/2013 3:03 PM (GMT -6)

If Hindemith, say, were reading this, he would say forget about concert-pitch scores, and instead learn to deal with transposition, and these problems would all vanish. He would I think say that anyone that can't do this has no business composing. Tough love, but there's truth to it.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

Philip.
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 11/21/2013 3:16 PM (GMT -6)

Robert and I have had many a conversation about this issue! Of course, in Sibelius, it just works because of the ability to define an instrument as in the attached, but anyway...

rpmseattle said...
Interestingly, the convention does not typically follow for Contrabassoon, which uses ledger lines, and instruments which are not octave offset are written with ledger lines as well (e.g. Tuba)

AFAIK Contrabassoon follows the same convention as Contrabass. Both transpose at the octave, both are retained at written pitch in either a transposed or concert pitch score.

With the MIDI workarounds Jeremy described, you get correct playback, but aren't things like copying/pasting, exploding, etc. still handled incorrectly, because Finale still thinks the notes are in a different octave?

Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010b, 2011c, 2012c
Sibelius 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3
Logic Pro 9
Mac 10.6.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
14 GB RAM
www.nycmusicservices.com/

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rpmseattle
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 419

Posted 11/21/2013 3:17 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
If Hindemith, say, were reading this, he would say forget about concert-pitch scores, and instead learn to deal with transposition, and these problems would all vanish. He would I think say that anyone that can't do this has no business composing. Tough love, but there's truth to it.

I can't personally speak for Hindemith, but my guess is, if he were composing movie scores in modern Hollywood, a pedantic and inflexible insistence on transposing scores for that genre would quickly put him out of the scoring business.

Finale 2012, 2011 | Mac Pro 8 Core Xeon | OSX 10.6.x
www.musicprep.com/makemusic
www.rpmseattle.com/of_note/category/finale/

rpmseattle
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 419

Posted 11/21/2013 3:31 PM (GMT -6)

Philip. said...

AFAIK Contrabassoon follows the same convention as Contrabass. Both transpose at the octave, both are retained at written pitch in either a transposed or concert pitch score.

Yes, I agree with this; the convention is to display all octave transposing instruments at written pitch regardless of whether the score is at concert pitch or transposed. I have updated my post above to clarify a bit more: For some reason, with Contrabassoon, I have seen a mix of concert pitch and written pitch in concert scores when orchestrators are working in Finale. Sibelius doesn't require any sort of workaround, and so this is more consistent (e.g. Contrabassoon always displays at written pitch and sounds 8vb) in its own instrument definitions.

Philip. said...
With the MIDI workarounds Jeremy described, you get correct playback, but aren't things like copying/pasting, exploding, etc. still handled incorrectly, because Finale still thinks the notes are in a different octave?

That is true.

Interesting how tools can affect both workflow and content.

Finale 2012, 2011 | Mac Pro 8 Core Xeon | OSX 10.6.x
www.musicprep.com/makemusic
www.rpmseattle.com/of_note/category/finale/

Post Edited (rpmseattle) : 11/21/2013 2:43:10 PM (GMT-6)

Count of Monte Verdi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 615

Posted 11/21/2013 4:13 PM (GMT -6)

I second that. Nevertheless, some scores are simply unnecessarily hard to read, if transposed. Hence, I do some in C.

Philip.
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 1466

Posted 11/21/2013 4:35 PM (GMT -6)

rpmseattle said...
For some reason, with Contrabassoon, I have seen a mix of concert pitch and written pitch in concert scores when orchestrators are working in Finale.

One explanation could be if it's a doubling instrument and sharing a staff with Bassoon, the orchestrators don't bother with Staff Styles; they just simply write the instrument name and leave it to the poor copyist to figure out!

Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010b, 2011c, 2012c
Sibelius 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3
Logic Pro 9
Mac 10.6.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
14 GB RAM
www.nycmusicservices.com/

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 11/21/2013 6:04 PM (GMT -6)

Take a look at the attached Finale document (in 2011 format).

I believe that it works as desired, in both layout and playback.
Try selecting "Display in Concert Pitch", and note what happens.

The solution has been discussed in this forum earlier - even if it has not been specifically mentioned in this thread:
Using special, octave clefs rather than staff transpositions.
In order to get rid of the little '8's in the clef symbols, the clefs have been edited in the Clef Designer, so that the clef glyphs have been replaced by the glyphs without the '8'.

There is no guitar part in this template, but it could easily be added in the same way, using the document's sixth clef.

Do you have any objections against this solution?
If I misunderstand the problem, then I apologize.

Peter

Mac Finale, 2011c, 2012c & 2014, Dolet 6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.8.4, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

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