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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Sort of OT: Hand written vs. engraved scores | Forum Quick Jump
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David Ward
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Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834
| Posted 10/11/2014 10:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Yes, very interesting.
Although he was then getting a bit off his original subject, as soon as I saw the two Waldstein examples, I compared the Peters edition which I have here, which, like the Henle, claims to be Urtext. What is strikingly different is the distribution of the music between the staves.
For much of my career, musicians have been playing from my or a copyist's MS (or photocopy of same). I think most musicians to whom I speak now prefer computer versions, although they often tell me that badly laid out 'Sibelius' parts are more of a hazard than all except the worst MS scrawls. (In the UK 'Sibelius' has become a generic term for computer typeset music, just as 'Hoover' and 'hoovering' is for a vacuum cleaner, even if actually a Dyson by make).
David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward
Finale 2014c with Mac 10.9.5
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
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Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014 | | Back to Top | |
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Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 10/11/2014 12:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Here is a better URL
www.icareifyoulisten.com/2012/03/handwritten-vs-digitally-engraved-scores-an-opinion-post-by-r-andrew-lee/
Sorry to be negative, but I'm afraid I found the article underwhelming. Yes, the manuscript and engraved editions are different--what a surprise!--but he says nothing about why that matters, other than the handwritten score seems more personal. It would be interesting to examine why. If it's more expressive, rather than just different, how is it so? If you just say it's "better," you're just expressing a not terribly self-aware opinion.
The Waldstein comparison seems even more pointless. Yes, the modern Henle edition is nicer than the cheap Dover reprint of a 100-year-old edition. If you compare the size of a note between the two editions, it becomes much less mysterious how Henle managed to get more music on the page. (I'm not sure "Urtext" extends to where the system breaks are, David. The Henle edition also benefits from decades more scholarly research than the Peters edition. If you look at the notes, not only is the autograph consulted, but early editions in which Beethoven had a hand as well.)
The composer's manuscript shown in the article is quite beautiful, though, unusually so, I think, for a composer as opposed to a copyist who has been trained in matters of spacing, etc.
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Saffron
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 4504
| Posted 10/11/2014 2:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Interesting. In musical theatre (my main working field), handwritten scores and parts are still commonplace. Some are very hastily scribbled; others, laid out more carefully. One by one, shows are being re-engraved, usually in Finale, in MOST cases, I find the results LESS appealing and harder to work from than the older, hand-written scores. Subtle variations in spacing, strength of strokes, and so on, is absent in the computer-generated output from Finale or Sibelius; stuff that either hand-writing copyists of traditional engravers could do instinctively, is either difficult or impossibly time-consuming to achieve in software.
Brian
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soundartist
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts : 311
| Posted 10/11/2014 9:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Agreeing with Wiggy and Motet.
The article is very interesting where the pianist suggests a more intimate connection with a handwritten score. The article goes much too far, though—to an absurd degree—when referring to the different Waldstein printings where the writer asks to "consider how these breaks might alter the perception of the piece and its performance. " Where system breaks occur, or how many bars there are in a staff is totally irrelevant to how a piece is interpreted and performed—unless I'm misunderstanding the article. In his Dover and Henle examples, bottom-line is that the information is exactly identical—notes, dynamics, articulations. A score should be printed clearly, regardless of the means—common sense.
Unrelated, but regarding "Urtext": I performed Beethoven's op. 109 on tour a few years ago. In one concert series, a musicologist was hired to write the program notes and he gave a pre-concert lecture (his doctoral thesis was about the history of Urtext editions). I knew that Urtext was a highly deceptive term, but didn't realize to what degree until reading his notes. Bottomline—if a composer's markings are failed to be exactly reproduced, or if little information exists about what the composer's intentions were (in documents other than the score), a publisher cannot rightfully claim the given piece as "Urtext". Goldenweiser protested this state of affairs and produced his own edition of the Beethoven sonatas where he's very careful and ethical to examine every sonata in detail in terms of in fact how much or how little documentation exists about Beethoven's intentions. The other side of this coin is that Urtext may also refer to a printing of an edition that exactly reflects the best-known manuscript or first-edition print on an "as is" basis, regardless of what the history behind the source is—so that if manuscript's history is ambiguous, edition is still Urtext because it faithfully reproduces whichever document remains. This is a totally legitimate designation for Urtext, but most people instead have been seduced by the authoritarian "dogma" of the first definition—a "blind trust" in a publisher's claim of authenticity, and publishers have capitalized on this.
The musicologist presented a document where Beethoven found many errors in the first printed edition of op109, but these corrections were never communicated to the publisher. The piece has since continued to be published, unaltered from its original printing—and yet, Henle, Barenreiter and others claim it as an Urtext edition. Practically all of Henle's editions of Bach's keyboard works are claimed as Urtext—a huge error, considering how little is known about many of those manuscripts. Big difference between faithful scholarship and dogma. | | Back to Top | |
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BobRock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 433
| Posted 10/11/2014 9:58 PM (GMT -6) | | | Regarding Beethoven: do we have someone on the forum, able to tell from which edition Waldstein sonata is played - just by listening to the recording? | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/11/2014 10:18 PM (GMT -6) | | All I know is, when engraving hand written scores by the late Fred Katz, I was told by the performers how much easier the engraved scores were to read. In fact, some of the hand written scores were unreadable. The printed scores saved unmeasured hours of prep time for the performers. Maybe the hand done script had an artistic flair, but if a performer can't read the notes, the music is dead in the water.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/11/2014 11:33 PM (GMT -6) | |
Wiggy said...
My personal bugbear is singing from an ms where all notes on ledger lines are written with noteheads at the same height, but just with more lines underneath them. Arrrrgh.
I noticed some of those in the manuscript of Ann Southam in the article referenced in this thread. I suppose that is part of the artistic attraction to manuscript. Never mind readability.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present.
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soundartist
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts : 311
| Posted 10/11/2014 11:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Am long familiar with some of those manuscripts—they're common knowledge.
That was precisely Goldenweiser's point, that because of so many inconsistencies and mistakes, the term Urtext is pointless if it means "authoritative" edition. As far as I've examined, he's the only editor who's made a point of conveying that. Example of poor "editorship" of Beethoven is Schnabel's comments—his claims are much more Schnabel than Beethoven. This can actually be fine, if his claims are limited to only his playing, in performance or recording where interpretation is highly subjective—but this is not scholarship. His edition is basically a description of how he plays.
In general, a truly fine editor who tries to "dig for the truth" while offering a convincing interpretation, is rare. Highly delicate process, to balance subjectivity with truth. Mugellini—a mighty example. | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/13/2014 9:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Remember? A chisel and a stone?
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present.
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
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