MakeMusic Forum

Home | Log In | Register | Search | Help

MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > What if you don't know the time signature of your melody?

Forum Quick Jump

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

fan
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts : 4

Posted 6/12/2015 5:01 PM (GMT -6)

Could you pls help me?

All my songs so far have been written in the common time (4/4).

Now I am trying a new melody, but I don't know its time signature. I tried to write it in the 6/8, but maybe it is the 3/4. I really don't know.

Can Finale solve this problem for me? What should I do in Finale?

Thank you.

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 6/12/2015 5:15 PM (GMT -6)

Sorry. You have to tell Finale that information. You might need to take a theory course or ask a music teacher. Finale is for notating, but you decide the details.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

~~Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3~~, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. ~~2014c at present.~~ Now 2014d.

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 6/13/2015 1:18 PM (GMT -6)

From your description, it sounds like you feel that the beats in your new melody are grouped in 3's, not 2's or 4's as in your previous melodies.

If you are sure that the beats are grouped in 3's, then you can notate your melody either in 6/8 with each beat written as one eighth note or 3/4 with each beat written as one quarter note.

There is a difference, but for practical purposes, it would not be significant to you at this point.

Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors
Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2
Adobe InDesign CS4, Acrobat XI Pro, Photoshop Elements 11
SmartScore X Pro
JW Plug-ins
Audacity 2.0.5
www.cantilenapress.com

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 6/13/2015 1:42 PM (GMT -6)

The difference between 6/8 and 3/4 SHOULD sound significant. Two groups of three versus 3 groups of two is significant.

Finale 2014d with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0.
JABB 3 and Concert & Marching Band 2.
Steinway: basic. Garritan's Instant Orchestra.
Garritan World Instruments. TGTools Pro
Windows 7 Home Edition, AMD FX-8100 8-Core Processor, 10 GB RAM
onboard Beats Audio sound card

violin and flamenco guitar, composer

Administrator, The Compose Forums
Specializing in contemporary art music

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 6/13/2015 2:06 PM (GMT -6)

Ron. said...
The difference between 6/8 and 3/4 SHOULD sound significant. Two groups of three versus 3 groups of two is significant.

I think John is talking about 6/8 where the eighth note is the pulse.

N.

Finale 2011c, 2012c - OSX 10.6.8
Finale 2014d - OSX 10.8.5

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 2GB RAM
New Belgium Trippel Ale

“The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.”
–Assyrian tablet, ca. 2800 BC

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 6/13/2015 2:42 PM (GMT -6)

Actually I said, "for practical purposes, significant to YOU at this point." (Now I know how politicians feel when they are misquoted.)

This person needs to go step by step, and I don't want to scare he or she off. After we get a little more feedback, we can delve into the more arcane matters of 6/8 vs. 3/4. That might be lesson 2, assuming that we haven't now scared this person off.

This is the music teacher of 40 years in me talking.

Zoots
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 385

Posted 6/13/2015 3:54 PM (GMT -6)

I would suggest listening to some 3/4 pieces - waltzes and then listen to 6/8 pieces such as 6/8 marches or perhaps some Irish music.

There are 2 beats per measure in the 6/8 where there are 3 in the 3/4. A conductor will beat 6/8 in 2 beats per measure unless he/she wants to direct each eighth such as in an ending. The conductor will beat a 3/4 piece in 3 or if is fast or very flowing 1 beat per measure.

You can walk to a 6/8 piece 1,2,1,2,1,2.... or Left, Right, Left, Right, ... but it doesn't easily work with a 3/4 piece unless you have 3 legs.

The above is a general comment; I'm sure pieces abound that don't exactly follow it.

Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 8.1

Intel i7 with more than I need

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 6/13/2015 4:19 PM (GMT -6)

Faster 6/8 is in 2, slower 6/8 is generally in 6. 6/8 can be produced both ways in the time signature tool in Finale.

Examples:

in 2 Beethoven Piano Sonata op. 81a Vivacissimamente (third mov.)

in 6 Beethoven Piano Sonata op. 10 no. 3 Largo e mesto (second mov.)

The latter piece could be rewritten in 3/4, doubling all the note values and halving the measures. No, it would not be quite the same, which is why Beethoven wrote it in 6/8, but for a person just starting out writing out their music, its good enough for now.

Fan, please come back. It's not always like this here!

fan
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts : 4

Posted 6/14/2015 3:09 PM (GMT -6)

Thank you so much for your kind replies. I have to say I don't really understand yet. But perhaps I will try to notate my melody in 6/8 first in Finale to see how it sounds. My song's BPM is around 55.

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 6/14/2015 3:13 PM (GMT -6)

8th=55 or Dotted Quarter=55?

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 6/14/2015 3:32 PM (GMT -6)

fan said...
My song's BPM is around 55.

1. When you feel those beats, do you go "1 2 3 1 2 3", with each number falling on each beat?
2. Or do you feel "1 2 3" WITHIN each of those beats?

If 1, then it's 3/4.
If 2, then it's 6/8.

"This is me helping."

Finale 2014d, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.10.3)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 6/14/2015 3:40 PM (GMT -6)

I think that this might be clearer: Fill a measure with 1/8th notes. Now, do you feel ONE two three FOUR five six (6/8) or ONE two THREE four FIVE six (3/4)?

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 6/15/2015 7:44 AM (GMT -6)

Fan, I'm glad you came back.

After you write out your melody in Finale, post the first few measures and let us take a look at them. We might be able to tell you if it is correctly notated.

You didn't say why you were confused. Do you understand about feeling beats in groups of 2's, 3's etc.? That is the crucial matter in notating rhythm. Once you can do that, the rest is actually quite easy.

petey forrest
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 670

Posted 6/15/2015 5:29 PM (GMT -6)

Zoots said...

You can walk to a 6/8 piece 1,2,1,2,1,2.... or Left, Right, Left, Right, ... but it doesn't easily work with a 3/4 piece unless you have 3 legs.

LOL ! Great explanation!

Petey

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 6/16/2015 12:47 PM (GMT -6)

Then there is 5/4… one could break a leg.

Fan, if there is any doubt about feeling groups of 3 beats, think of a waltz, as Zoots mentioned, which is always in groups of three beats. The first beat is always the strongest; that is how we know where each group (of three beats) starts. Waltzes are generally written in 3/4 time with each beat being represented by one quarter note and the strongest beat falling at the beginning of each measure. That is what bar lines really show: which beats are the strongest: the first beat. A waltz could also be written in 3/8 time with each beat being represented by one eighth note. Again the strongest beat would come at the beginning of each measure. There would be no difference in the sound of a piece written in 3/4 or 3/8, just in the way it was written down.

Sometimes two 3/8 measures are put together to form a larger measure of 6/8 time, just as two measures of 2/4 are sometimes put together to form a 4/4 measure. This is to show that the groups of three beats are themselves grouped as a pair, with the first group felt as stronger than the second group. Three measures of 3/8 would form a 9/8 measure, so that the first of the three groups is felt as the strongest.

So 6/8 is really two groups of three beats; but 3/4 is just one group of three beats. If you want to show the groups of three beats in pairs, write your piece in 6/8. However, the simplest way at first would to write it in 3/4 with each beat as one quarter note. This issue about 6/8 vs. 3/4 is what I was referring to in my first post. It is a common issue when people first write down their melodies.

All of this explanation is regarding slow and medium tempo pieces. There are 3/8 and 6/8 and 9/8 pieces in which the eighth note "beats" are so fast that we no longer feel them as beats and feel only each GROUP as a beat. So 3/8 would be felt as one beat (GROUP) subdivided into three's. 6/8 would be felt as just two beats (GROUPS) each subdivided into three's etc. A good example would be the Irish Jig, as Zoots also mentioned. So 6/8 can sometimes be felt as just two beats per measure, which is confusing, since 3/4, which has exactly the same number of 8th notes in it, generally gets three beats per measure! That is what other Forum posts were concerned about. It is another common point of confusion.

Whichever is the issue, I hope this post shed a little more light on it.

You can tell that we are really trying hard to help you. Post part of your piece and it will be a lot easier!

Forum Information

Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 6:44 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual