MakeMusic Forum

Home | Log In | Register | Search | Help

MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Horn notation, slightly OT

Forum Quick Jump

37 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 3/29/2013 7:32 AM (GMT -6)

I am working on a piece by Rameau, an Air Gay in G major. The two horns are notated in g clef, no key, but all the notes seem to be shifted one step up, so the first two notes that obviously are a G major third read d''-f''.

What does this mean? Why notate it like that?

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943

Posted 3/29/2013 7:39 AM (GMT -6)

Look up "transposing instruments".

Gareth J. Green

Fin2012c, running under Vista 64-bit

(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)

Stolichnaya Blue

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 3/29/2013 7:46 AM (GMT -6)

Many instruments are written at a pitch different than what they sound. This is called "transposition." There are good historical reasons for this. "Horns" are commonly misnamed "French Horns" transposed up a perfect 5th. In other words, if the piece is in C major, the horn parts will be written in G. If you mean "trumpet" when you write "horn," then many modern trumpets are written in Bb--which would account for your comment about the part being "shifted one step up."

Sounds like you should get a hold of a basic book on orchestration. You could also come over to our forum (in my signature) and start a new topic about transposition and get lots of expert advice and explanations on the subject. Better yet: do both.

Finale 2012c with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0.
JABB 3 and Concert & Marching Band 2.
Steinway: basic. Garritan's Instant Orchestra.
Garritan World Instruments. TGTools Pro
Windows 7 Home Edition, AMD FX-8100 8-Core Processor, 10 GB RAM

onboard Beats Audio sound card

Administrator, The Compose Forums
Specializing in contemporary art music

Post Edited (Ron.) : 3/29/2013 9:32:10 AM (GMT-5)

Jim Williams
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 728

Posted 3/29/2013 9:23 AM (GMT -6)

Ron~If the piece is in C concert, the horn part, if it has a keysig, will show a keysig of G (one sharp)

F Horn music sounds a fifth lower then the written pitch (NOT a fourth higher), so a written Middle C for the F horn sounds the F on line 4 of the bass staff.

AND: The same scheme should hold for horn in bass clef.

Jim (plays horn parts on euphonium in his brass 5tet) Williams

WinFin 2012, 2011</div>Core-i7 laptop, 16 gB RAM, Win 8
2 Core 2 duo laptops, Win 7 Enterprise and XP Pro
iPad 3 w/Zagg Folio
Miraphone 5050 and Yamaha 321 Euphoniums
Yamaha 621 Baritone Horn, Holton 58 Bass Trumpet,
blue pBone.

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 3/29/2013 9:31 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Jim,
Sorry, I am a string player and admit that my thinking was backwards on this one. You are quite right, of course. (I do get it right in my scores, however.)
(I'll correct my entry so as not to confuse the poster.)

onboard Beats Audio sound card

Administrator, The Compose Forums
Specializing in contemporary art music

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 3/29/2013 9:38 AM (GMT -6)

I am well aware of the concept of transposition etc.

When I get back home, I will attach a screen shot and see if can explain my question more clearly.

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 3/29/2013 9:46 AM (GMT -6)

If it's written a step up, and no signature, it might be a Bb horn.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 3/29/2013 11:24 AM (GMT -6)

OK, another go.

I am working on a Rameau opera, from around 1760, so the horns in use are natural horns. Sofar there have been pieces in F, C, D and G-major, all the time notated in g-clef and in the key of C. This means that the horn player picks the appropriate horn for the key in use (I am saying this just to let you know that I know..!).

But in this particular piece, the horns are notated in a way that is a bit different (see attached file, third staff). If I assume that the clef is wrong and read it as if it had a tenor clef one octave up, it will work with the other parts, and the player can use a natural horn in G. But why notate like that? Is there a reason I don't know of?

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

Image Attachment :
Image Preview

horns.jpg 191KB (image/jpeg)

This image has been viewed 532 time(s).

Jazvampire
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 309

Posted 3/29/2013 11:46 AM (GMT -6)

Looks like these are transposed for F horns... their key is C whereas violins are in G. This is merely a transposed score!

"Do what you believe in, and believe in what you do"

Finale 2008a, XP32

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 3/29/2013 12:18 PM (GMT -6)

Have a look at the first horn chord to see that this is not the case.

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

David Ward
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834

Posted 3/29/2013 12:22 PM (GMT -6)

Actually, there does seem to be something odd here. If these are for horns in F, horn 1 has quite a few concert B flats: no-one else appears to have a B flat. But then, of course, this is for natural horn. The 11th harmonic is between F and F sharp, until modified by the hand. Maybe there was an assumption in France at the time that the note would be modified and played as an F sharp (sounding B natural) if that was what the key required, even without there being a sharp in the score. Then it does make sense.

Perhaps one of the baroque specialists on the forum can advise: Wiggy?

David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2010b
Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943

Posted 3/29/2013 12:33 PM (GMT -6)

David Ward said...
Actually, there does seem to be something odd here. If these are for horns in F, horn 1 has quite a few concert B flats: no-one else appears to have a B flat. But then, of course, this is for natural horn. The 11th harmonic is between F and F sharp, until modified by the hand. Maybe there was an assumption in France at the time that the note would be modified and played as an F sharp (sounding B natural) if that was what the key required, even without there being a sharp in the score. Then it does make sense.

Not really. The 2nd Horn part still has lots of written 'A's, which are not part of the harmonic series. Again, there is a very flat written Bb available, which I suppose could be adjusted by hand, but I've never before seen natural horn writing like that. In later periods, virtuosi players of the hand horn had mastered the art of controlling the intonation to make many more chromatic notes available than were normally considered "standard", but I would be surprised if that were expected in Rameau's time. In any case why bother, when a G horn is available? In terms of natural harmonics, it only makes sense if the parts should be for Horns in G, and the note positions are a 2nd out.

My conclusion is that either Rameau or his copyist had spent rather too much time in the tavern ...

Gareth J. Green

Fin2012c, running under Vista 64-bit

(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)

Stolichnaya Blue

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 3/29/2013 12:40 PM (GMT -6)

assuming those Fs should be sharp, otherwise, all of the notes once transposed for horn in F fit perfectly as far as the overall key is concerned.

Finale (started with ver. 3.0) 2010, 2011, 2012b installed
Win XP
basically ALL Garritan sounds, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ~John Rogers

David Ward
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834

Posted 3/29/2013 12:48 PM (GMT -6)

Are those violas ('alto's) in the soprano C clef? Not being a baroque specialist, I'd better bow out from this one; but I will be interested to know the answer to the horn conundrum. Perhaps Gareth has it.

David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2010b
Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Post Edited (David Ward) : 3/29/2013 12:55:38 PM (GMT-5)

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 3/29/2013 12:56 PM (GMT -6)

Yes David, those are violas.

Michel, you are right in what you are saying. But other pieces in the opera makes use of G horn, so why not here...

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 3/29/2013 12:57 PM (GMT -6)

no idea, but I just listened to the "Air" in question, and the score most definitely represents what I heard: horns in F, with those Fs being sharp.

Kelby
MakeMusic, Inc. Employee

Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 69

Posted 3/29/2013 1:01 PM (GMT -6)

Greetings,
Let me first state that I am a horn player and a composer/theory person.

After looking at the excerpt, it seems the copyist might have made up their own notation rules for the horn part.

1) It is probably written for horn in G, without seeing the rest of the score for context, that is probably a safe assumption.
2) The part is written in G, but not in the regular manner. Think of it written in Tenor clef. That would make all the notes fit into the correct harmonics for a natural horn.

For example: the first chord is C and E, which for Horn in G transposes to concert G and B.

3) The problem with choosing Tenor clef though, is the notes would sound an octave too low.

See the attached example. Hopefully you have Finale 2012. Otherwise I can get you a PDF.

You are going to have fun with this project. The 'rules' of copying parts and editing were localized and I have seen horn parts from this period. I think they did whatever made sense at that time.

-K

Kelby

"Talent Borrows, Genius Steals" Igor Stravinsky

Mac and PC Finale user since version 3.5+

File Attachment :
horn in G example.mus 44KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 346 time(s).

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 3/29/2013 1:06 PM (GMT -6)

There is a C clef on the bottom line for the altos.

From the harmonies it's clear that the the horn part is in F with the sharps omitted from the key signature. What's odd is that this would have been played on horns pitched in G and so the part normally would be written a step lower, i.e., in G. The French do have their own way of doing things sometimes, though.

Edit: the above three postings were written as I was writing mine.

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools

Windows XP

Post Edited (Motet) : 3/29/2013 1:10:24 PM (GMT-5)

Kelby
MakeMusic, Inc. Employee

Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 69

Posted 3/29/2013 1:07 PM (GMT -6)

Sending up the PDF version of my example.

Saw that you had Finale 2011.

-K

Kelby

"Talent Borrows, Genius Steals" Igor Stravinsky

Mac and PC Finale user since version 3.5+

File Attachment :
horn in G example.pdf 39KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 306 time(s).

winknotes
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 418

Posted 3/29/2013 2:01 PM (GMT -6)

Michel R. E. said...
no idea, but I just listened to the "Air" in question, and the score most definitely represents what I heard: horns in F, with those Fs being sharp.

Michel's absolutely right. If you listen to it it's clear that this score is horns in F and is missing an F#.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9pRkOvtnEo

Steve Winkler

Finale 2009c, 2011b
GPO, GPO4, JABB3, VSL SE/SE+
Windows 7 Professional 64-bit

Kelby
MakeMusic, Inc. Employee

Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 69

Posted 3/29/2013 2:17 PM (GMT -6)

Harpsi,
Is this a period manuscript score?

-K

Kelby

"Talent Borrows, Genius Steals" Igor Stravinsky

Mac and PC Finale user since version 3.5+

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 3/29/2013 4:24 PM (GMT -6)

Yes it is. I have two sources at hand, and both have the same notation.

To make things even more strange, this tune is preceded by a choir in G major with the horns in G notated normally. Why would they switch? AFAIK, it wasn't customary in this time to play any other key than the one the horn was built for. F horn plays F major, period. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 3/29/2013 5:04 PM (GMT -6)

And thanks for the PDF, Kelby, that sums it up!

What if the assumed "tenor clef" like notation told the player to use a G horn but for another octave? Did they have something like "G basso"?

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

Per Ottar Gjerstad
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2000
Total Posts : 132

Posted 3/31/2013 7:55 AM (GMT -6)

Rameau sometimes used or re-used some of his music from time to time. I have a facsimile print of "Les Paladins" where this music is used, and in my score the music is in F major (and uses horns in F). The same music is also used in the overture to "La Naissance d'Osiris", but now without the horn parts.
Anyway, it is, as I see it, no doubt that the attached example here is for horns in G, but notated a second to high. This corresponds exactly to the horn parts in my score.

Per Ottar Gjerstad
Mac Book Pro 15"

Harpsi
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 495

Posted 3/31/2013 9:01 AM (GMT -6)

Yes, it appears in two places in Les Paladins, in the ouverture in F, and in the third act in G. Same music. Did you see the interesting remark on the top of the page in act 3 - "les parties de remplissage comme a l'ouverture"? I wonder what he actually means with that. There are no extra" filling parts" in the F setting in the ouverture...

Finale 2011, XP. Midi via gameport.

37 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2

Forum Information

Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 7:45 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual