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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Finale 2014 is a nightmare. Most disappointing update in a long time | Forum Quick Jump
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saxop
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 261
| Posted 11/12/2013 7:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | MowingDevil said...saxop said...MowingDevil said...
Your counter was not strong. Yes Blizzard is a much larger company but they also produce much larger products. I disagree with that. In terms of complexity, the logic in a program like Finale is more difficult to write than many of Blizzard's top games. It's much more open-ended. Finale also has been in ongoing development, whereas games are started and finished over a much shorter period of time. Games also lend themselves easily to modular code that can be easily tested, proven and re-used without need of modification or retesting down the line (a path finding or flocking algorithm, for example). You obviously do this with notation software as well, but there tend to be more changes that disrupt existing pieces and force some measure of rework. Seriously? How many years has Finale been in existence? Its not like the idea of notation has changed all that much in that time either. AND, where it has changed & evolved Finale has ignored it for the most part. I'm thinking in terms of graphic notation, stopwatch scores etc. Finale begins & ends w/ school band charts, piano music, symphonic scores, pop music, chamber etc. They've added guitar tab but haven't exactly catered to new music composers to say the least and thats where the boundaries of notation have been pushed the most. So considering all this, Finale just has to make the process more logical and improve the work flow in the next version. In other words, its not like they're reinventing the wheel each time they release a new version. They've got a foundation that is there, all they have to do is improve upon it. This year is the exception because of all their foundational changes....but thats why they took an additional year. NoteAbility Pro is the only notation software out there that is focused on the new music composer and can pretty much do anything including (soon) Chinese prescript ive notation. Its continually evolving and being updated. I dabble in it but still prefer Finale for most of my work primarily because I learned on it and know it the best. I'm enthused w/ some of the new features in 2014 but they really need a new music composer on their development team.
As I said, the number of years Finale has been in existence is one of the reasons it's likely a bigger and more complex program than many of Blizzard's games (StarCraft, Warcraft, and Diablo). Finale's intended uses aren't nearly restrictive enough to protect it from complexities and challenges that will at times twist the minds of the best software engineers. Give it a try. I guarantee you will run into things that you didn't anticipate. | | Back to Top | |
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Philip.
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 11/12/2013 7:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Michel R. E. said...Wiggy said...Writer of Music said...
[I'll accept my loss of $170 What no refund? yes, it seems like an odd comment to make. if the $170 is too important a loss, then why not simply ask for a refund? I was refunded for Finale 2004, no questions asked. MakeMusic have excellent customer support.
Yes, MakeMusic offers a 30-day money-back guarantee for all their products, if that's what you wish.
Finale 2008b, 2009b, 2010b, 2011c, 2012c
Sibelius 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3
Logic Pro 9
Mac 10.6.8
2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
14 GB RAM
www.nycmusicservices.com/ | | Back to Top | |
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Writer of Music
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848
| Posted 11/12/2013 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Michel R. E. said...Wiggy said...Writer of Music said...
[I'll accept my loss of $170 What no refund? yes, it seems like an odd comment to make. if the $170 is too important a loss, then why not simply ask for a refund? I was refunded for Finale 2004, no questions asked. MakeMusic have excellent customer support.
Writer of Music said...
I can understand mr. Bischoff's frustration. I too feel like I just flushed $170 (taxes included) down the toilet. Okay, I know it probably will not be a total waste, presuming that an update will fix the most prominent problems with 2014, but for now I have absolutely no use for an app that robbed me of five otherwise productive days. Of course, your mileage may vary.
Really? Is reading that hard?
Finale 2014, but switched back to 2012c
Mac OS X 10.9, 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3
… as the critic said to the composer: "It's not just your brownnose, your music really stinks".Post Edited (Writer of Music) : 11/14/2013 3:54:33 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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MowingDevil
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 52
| Posted 11/12/2013 11:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
NoteAbility Pro is the only notation software out there that is focused on the new music composer and can pretty much do anything including (soon) Chinese prescriptive notation. Do you have a PDF sample of a complex NoteAbility Pro score that's hard to do in Finale? I looked at the samples on the home page and they all seemed easy to do in Finale as well.
I'm not an expert on NAPro but I'll ask a friend who uses it regularly and post it here. What I can tell you, w/ my limited experience on it, is you can use quarter tones and have them playback at pitch as easily as selecting any accidental. Finale can handle quarter tones but its a pain in the butt and totally convoluted. Wth? Why aren't they in the palette w/ the accidentals? How long have composers been using quarter tones in western music? Its hardly the latest thing. I have no idea about Sibelius in this regard. Have things changed w/ 2014? I haven't heard anything yet. If not thats a total FAIL.
Another big thing is, if you use Max/MSP you can network between the two of them. In other words you can write Max messages into the score so that as the score plays back it triggers events in Max. You can take it even further to include score following w/ a camera so NAPro will follow the performer....in real time, slow down w/ the performer....wait for the performer, speed up w/ the performer and playback the score while triggering anything in Max. I think thats one helluva feature if you're into live performance w/ real-time electronics.
NAPro can be intimidating at first because almost every parameter can be changed w/ very few limitations....including not being restricted by the time sig etc. Those restrictions are perfect for basic traditional notation but can be limiting if someone wants to push into new territory.
Its very open that way and a composer's notation program. Its very easy to use for graphical notation and even has some basic graphic designers built in, although like all programs the shapes are best cerated in an illustration program and imported.
Why aren't there more extended technique symbols in Finale? There are in NAPro. You shouldn't have to "create" these for the most common ones. This is a big thing for me.
Why isn't there an "n" and a circle in the dynamics section for niente? *Very* common to use in composition. Boggles the mind, I can only hope they corrected this in 2014.
You can do early notation, going back to chant. I don't believe you can do that w/ Finale or Sibelius. As I mentioned earlier, Chinese notation is coming soon (great for Chinese and world music composers).
You only have one cresc/decrescendo wedge tool....which is all Finale should have since you it forms its shape based on which way you drag it. Having 2 is redundant.
Nevertheless, it shows what is possible and the team who develops NAPro is only 1 person. | | Back to Top | |
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Jari Williamsson
Registered Member
 
Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246
| Posted 11/13/2013 4:41 AM (GMT -6) | | MowingDevil said...
I'm not an expert on NAPro but I'll ask a friend who uses it regularly and post it here. What I can tell you, w/ my limited experience on it, is you can use quarter tones and have them playback at pitch as easily as selecting any accidental. Finale can handle quarter tones but its a pain in the butt and totally convoluted. Wth? Why aren't they in the palette w/ the accidentals? How long have composers been using quarter tones in western music? Its hardly the latest thing. I have no idea about Sibelius in this regard. Have things changed w/ 2014? I haven't heard anything yet. If not thats a total FAIL.
But that's not notation, that's playback. Is it as easy to do 1/6 note playback in NoteAbility Pro?
MowingDevil said...
Why aren't there more extended technique symbols in Finale? There are in NAPro. You shouldn't have to "create" these for the most common ones. This is a big thing for me. Why isn't there an "n" and a circle in the dynamics section for niente? *Very* common to use in composition. Boggles the mind, I can only hope they corrected this in 2014.
If you need it, just create it. Once. Delete the stuff you don't need. Save to your template(s).
MowingDevil said...
You can do early notation, going back to chant. I don't believe you can do that w/ Finale or Sibelius.
Yes, you can...
MowingDevil said...
You only have one cresc/decrescendo wedge tool....which is all Finale should have since you it forms its shape based on which way you drag it. Having 2 is redundant.
Well, it might be redundant for some users, but not if you're a left-to-right drag user. You can use just one of the Finale tools for hairpins and drag the other way to get the opposite shape, if that's what you want.
Jari Williamsson
Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM
www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site | | Back to Top | |
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MowingDevil
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 52
| Posted 11/13/2013 5:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
I'm not an expert on NAPro but I'll ask a friend who uses it regularly and post it here. What I can tell you, w/ my limited experience on it, is you can use quarter tones and have them playback at pitch as easily as selecting any accidental. Finale can handle quarter tones but its a pain in the butt and totally convoluted. Wth? Why aren't they in the palette w/ the accidentals? How long have composers been using quarter tones in western music? Its hardly the latest thing. I have no idea about Sibelius in this regard. Have things changed w/ 2014? I haven't heard anything yet. If not thats a total FAIL. But that's not notation, that's playback. Is it as easy to do 1/6 note playback in NoteAbility Pro?
Incorrect, its both. There is no accidental in Finale that indicates a 1/4 tone. Regardless, I prefer to reasonably hear back what I see if I'd hit play. What are you referring to w/ "1/6 note", 1/6 of a tone?
Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
Why aren't there more extended technique symbols in Finale? There are in NAPro. You shouldn't have to "create" these for the most common ones. This is a big thing for me. Why isn't there an "n" and a circle in the dynamics section for niente? *Very* common to use in composition. Boggles the mind, I can only hope they corrected this in 2014. If you need it, just create it. Once. Delete the stuff you don't need. Save to your template(s).
Ridiculous for standard extended notation. Sure, if you want to invent your own notation - fair enough. There's no excuse for several notational symbols that have been neglected for years.
Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
You can do early notation, going back to chant. I don't believe you can do that w/ Finale or Sibelius. Yes, you can...
How, by creating your own again? The symbols are already there in NAPro, thats my point. They are not in Finale unless they're hidden Easter eggs somewhere.
Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
You only have one cresc/decrescendo wedge tool....which is all Finale should have since you it forms its shape based on which way you drag it. Having 2 is redundant. Well, it might be redundant for some users, but not if you're a left-to-right drag user. You can use just one of the Finale tools for hairpins and drag the other way to get the opposite shape, if that's what you want.
Ok, here you're just being contrary. That makes no sense. You click and drag either left or right. It doesn't matter if you have a crescendo or a decrescendo hairpin. They're both the same depending on which way you drag. | | Back to Top | |
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Jari Williamsson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 3246
| Posted 11/13/2013 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | MowingDevil said...
There is no accidental in Finale that indicates a 1/4 tone.
Yes, there is, and I have seen many pieces that uses these accidentals by composers. I personally don't like the look of those accidentals, so I tend to use accidentals from other fonts.
MowingDevil said...
What are you referring to w/ "1/6 note", 1/6 of a tone?
Yes. Or the Makam system?
MowingDevil said...
Ridiculous for standard extended notation. Sure, if you want to invent your own notation - fair enough. There's no excuse for several notational symbols that have been neglected for years.
It's only standard notation for certain types of music, and I agree with you that the default file is aimed toward traditional western notation. I don't know if any of the standard libraries includes a pre-defined niente definition, but it takes a couple of seconds to create one from scratch: select the dynamics expression definitions, duplicate pppp and replace the pppp character with slot 150 in the Maestro font. Sorry, I can't see the problem here.
MowingDevil said...
How, by creating your own again? The symbols are already there in NAPro, thats my point. They are not in Finale unless they're hidden Easter eggs somewhere.
There are several different fonts and other approaches. None built in to the default document, though.
MowingDevil said...
Ok, here you're just being contrary. That makes no sense. You click and drag either left or right. It doesn't matter if you have a crescendo or a decrescendo hairpin. They're both the same depending on which way you drag.
I don't understand what you write here, but in Finale:
* Drag a crescendo left-to-right to get a crescendo
* Drag a crescendo right-to-left to get a diminuendo.
I can see that NoteAbility Pro might be a good composer's tool, but the sample PDFs on the web page are certainly not good enough for publishing. Cross-staff notation that sometimes lacks stems inside the beams, all sorts of strange collisions, etc, etc. And it doesn't seem to include MusicXML export?
Jari Williamsson
Windows XP, Pentium 4
2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM
www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site | | Back to Top | |
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MowingDevil
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 52
| Posted 11/14/2013 12:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
There is no accidental in Finale that indicates a 1/4 tone. Yes, there is, and I have seen many pieces that uses these accidentals by composers. I personally don't like the look of those accidentals, so I tend to use accidentals from other fonts.
Really? Where?
If it is there why isn't in w/ the other accidentals? As far as I know, to do 1/4 tones its a totally long convoluted work-around and to play them back you need to utilize pitch bend.
Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
What are you referring to w/ "1/6 note", 1/6 of a tone? Yes. Or the Makam system?
I have no idea, I'm not a regular NAPro user. I'll inquire.
Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
Ridiculous for standard extended notation. Sure, if you want to invent your own notation - fair enough. There's no excuse for several notational symbols that have been neglected for years. It's only standard notation for certain types of music, and I agree with you that the default file is aimed toward traditional western notation. I don't know if any of the standard libraries includes a pre-defined niente definition, but it takes a couple of seconds to create one from scratch: select the dynamics expression definitions, duplicate pppp and replace the pppp character with slot 150 in the Maestro font. Sorry, I can't see the problem here.
The niente is not a problem, its just a small example of the dozens of omissions from Finale. I've created my own niente ...but seriously, why isn't it there? Why don't we just create all of the dynamics while we're at it. Niente is certainly more standard than pppp. The problem is the big picture. You shouldn't have to do work-arounds for common extended notation. Yet, they have some (often rarely used) extended notational symbols. Its a massive oversight that could be EASILY rectified.
Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
How, by creating your own again? The symbols are already there in NAPro, thats my point. They are not in Finale unless they're hidden Easter eggs somewhere. There are several different fonts and other approaches. None built in to the default document, though.
Jari Williamsson said...MowingDevil said...
Ok, here you're just being contrary. That makes no sense. You click and drag either left or right. It doesn't matter if you have a crescendo or a decrescendo hairpin. They're both the same depending on which way you drag. I don't understand what you write here, but in Finale: * Drag a crescendo left-to-right to get a crescendo * Drag a crescendo right-to-left to get a diminuendo.
EXACTLY my point, why do you need 2 tools when they both do the exact same thing?!? David Ward please try it out. Why not have one hairpin tool?
Jari Williamsson said...
I can see that NoteAbility Pro might be a good composer's tool, but the sample PDFs on the web page are certainly not good enough for publishing. Cross-staff notation that sometimes lacks stems inside the beams, all sorts of strange collisions, etc, etc. And it doesn't seem to include MusicXML export?
Please see Michael Good's response and yes it most certainly looks good enough for publishing from what I've seen. If you see any collisions etc in those PDFs I would say its just examples of the software in use. Avoiding collisions is up to the user regardless of program. I haven't done a comparison but the scores I've seen are certainly the same quality as Finale. | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 11/14/2013 9:40 AM (GMT -6) | | saxop said...MowingDevil said...
Niente is certainly more standard than pppp. No chance. I can show any 7th grader a pppp and they'll get the point. I could find a class of music majors where not one of them is familiar with the term "niente." Creating expressions is not a workaround. That's the program working as intended. The reason for not including a lot of symbols is obvious to any good software designer. Making people search through a ton of crap that they'll never need to find what they do is bad design. You don't slow down 90% of users to accommodate the needs of 10%. Instead you look at ways to make it easy for the 10% to customize the program to their needs (which Finale does perfectly in this instance). The 2 hairpins are also there for usability. First, it doesn't leave new users wondering where the decrescendo is. It also doesn't confuse existing users who started using Finale in the days before dragging either direction was possible. Finally, it allows 2 metatool keys to be mapped, < and >. When working forward in a score, especially when drawing hairpins that go between multiple systems, it's nice to be able to work left to right. Try it. Make a software program that allows a particular hairpin workflow for 20 years that your users become accustomed to, and then change things so that people have to add hairpins a different way. See what kind of response you get. I'd think that after seeing people's response here to missing "redundant" toolbars that you might see why it would be a mistake.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo! (particularly about the cliché of niente)
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 8 64-bit, 12GB RAM
UNABLE TO DOWNLOAD Finale 2014 DUE TO LACK OF CAT PICTURES.
If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read | | Back to Top | |
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Zoots
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 385
| Posted 11/14/2013 9:45 AM (GMT -6) | | saxop said...MowingDevil said...
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Try it. Make a software program that allows a particular hairpin workflow for 20 years that your users become accustomed to, and then change things so that people have to add hairpins a different way. See what kind of response you get. I'd think that after seeing people's response here to missing "redundant" toolbars that you might see why it would be a mistake. Indeed, unfortunately that is Finale's situation regarding the program as a whole. Even less than ideal things get entrenched. Probably why the QWERTY keyboard still is highly dominant. It is the reason why the IBM-PC had to ensure any development was backwards compatible for their business users while Apple was able to introduce the completely new and innovative Mac. Being a new Finale user and being aware of the great work that is done with it, I have no business giving much of an opinion about it. However I will say that the UI seems somewhat of a kludge at times.
Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria
MuseScore interest
Smartscore Pro X2
Windows 8 | | Back to Top | |
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David Ward
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834
| Posted 11/15/2013 2:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Michel R. E. said...Michael Cook said...BvdPress said...
As a side note, I never really understood pppp or ffff. They both seem to be overkill to me, but I think Tchaikovsky or the editors used them every now and then. The famous example is the bassoon solo in the first movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony, marked pppppp. where the bassoonist basically just waves his instrument around, pretending to play.. the symphonic equivalent of Marcel Marseau?
In other words, it's all relative.
David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward
Finale 2010b, 2014
Mac 10.6.8, 10.8.5
full TGTools | | Back to Top | |
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RV
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 173
| Posted 11/15/2013 9:33 AM (GMT -6) | | - I am SO happy that I bought this fine update!
Unfortunately, my 2012 version (that I also updated) just cost me a mere 150 Euros. (thats about $180).
That was a FANTASTIC update as well.
- apart that I couldn't use it at all, as I wanted to…
NOW;
- there is Finale 2014 shipping!!
I am SO HAPPY that I decided to give MakeMusic/Finalemusic/Coda… (or whatever they are called now) ANOTHER chance to make up for things they might have done wrong…
I got my package today in the Post. Also, a mere 150 Euros… (It's good I am MADE of money!)
- it's a BEAUTIFUL package! I'd say! (Good design-department!!).
I immediately installed the software on my -admitted- COMPLETELY out-of-date iMac (i5 from 2010 - only with 4GB of Ram).
- I guess it must be my darn old unusable computer that just can't handle this amazing piece of software…
Because - my App CRASHES before I even see a splash screen…
Bummer.
Well.
- I guess Finale just don't WANT to make good softwares anymore…
I got my (very) old version.
- Weirdly enough - this works fantastic. (even if it says it shouldn't be working on my system…).
Now - you all go write some fabulous scores, ya people!!
GO-GO-GO!
RV
iMac (12,1), 2,5GHz, 8Gb RAM
Finale 2012 c.r13 (2008 b r1, 2005, 2003, v.3, v.1.1)
Logic Pro 8
Lexicon i-ONIX FW810S
OS 10.5.8
OS 10.8.2
www.aenigma-edition.com | | Back to Top | |
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RV
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 173
| Posted 11/15/2013 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | OCTO. said.... said...
Logic Pro X was my previous major update and everything I said about Finale 2014 is also true fro Logic X. Worst update ever. Good to know (your opinion). I will stay on my LP8, Fin 11 and OS X.SL. Safe heaven. Everything works. Until the storm calms down.
The storm WON'T calm down. I don't believe in this anymore...
It's just friggin' amazing!
- we are living in a BAAADtime for computer softwares!
There ARE too many descent small-companies doing the life unbearable for the big ones, so they can't do the proper stuff anymore in time…
Finale CONSTANTLY try to compete with Sibelius, although they shouldn't be "rivals" but more two softwares with a different approach!
(in the end - they both look pretty darn identical in the score-output…
I think it would be wise to split-up the two paths apart, instead of going so close in parallel all the time!)
Why don't they make Finale for the "geeky Pro's (Now REALLY!!) and sibelius for the sometimes-users and teachers/schools?
In that way, we all might become happier, in terms of dedicated functionality!
(Of course; the company that makes the less money, whichever that would be, will be in trouble… so we would never see this coming…).
oh, well…
- maybe I'd just accept the fact that making music is old-fashioned…
(not to mention creating SCORES!! ) 
RV
iMac (12,1), 2,5GHz, 8Gb RAM
Finale 2012 c.r13 (2008 b r1, 2005, 2003, v.3, v.1.1)
Logic Pro 8
Lexicon i-ONIX FW810S
OS 10.5.8
OS 10.8.2
www.aenigma-edition.com | | Back to Top | |
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