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SF2
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  		   Posted 1/23/2004 5:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Are people really happy about 2004? I received it 2 days ago and I think it is a poor release.

Speed is a big problem. For instance, use the tie adjustment tool from the special tool palette, nudge some ties and judge if this is something you would accept. Especially in comparison to previous versions (which were slow but not this slow). I would like to say positive things about the new features but it does not matter if the program is a dog.

Today I tried an experiment. I have 2 machines: mirror door Dual 1Ghz machine with 1 GB RAM running 10.3 and the other a Prismo Powerbook G3, 500Mhz, 256MB RAM running 10.2.6. I tested many different things but the best judge of speed is seen using the tie adjustment tool. The speed was almost exactly the same on both machines! I would think the faster machine would give me faster results but it did not. Why?

It seems that everyone is happy about an OSX port but it is far from being a usable piece of software in it's current state (if you use it in your business). At first I thought I was the only one with this reaction but today I have received calls from other engravers agreeing that it's going to sit on the shelf until Coda can get it's act together. Obviously the delayed reaction to porting to OSX was a huge mistake for Coda. I have now come to like Sibelius only for its ability to force Coda into the future.

Let's hope there is an update soon.

Very disappointed,
Steve Fiskum
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Sebastian Huydts
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  		   Posted 1/24/2004 11:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Steve,

As far as speed I had a similar experience as you did. However, after I changed all preferences to my 2003 ones (manually) and deselected automatic spacing and update layout, the lag I initially noticed was significantly reduced, although it still feels kind of "stiff" and "jerky" compared to 2003. But hey, MIDI input finally works and I save time by not constantly having to reboot (F2003 crashed a lot and wouldn't quit without crashing). I'll live with the delay hoping that a future update will solve these issues.

Good luck,

Sebastian
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kaumann
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  		   Posted 1/24/2004 11:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am using 450MHz G4 AGP with 832MB RAM and 10.3.2
Yes, it is very slow.

S-L-O-O-O-W!

I even have to wait for speedy entry frame to jump to next measure (about 1-2 seconds).

I have 800MHz Quicksilver 2002 with 1GB RAM at home, will test it there soon.

Actually, I have old G3 366MHz iBook here too, I will try Fin 2004 there as well, good idea.
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kaumann
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  		   Posted 1/24/2004 11:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
F2004 just crashed while deleting notes in speedy entry frame...
YIKES!
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smack
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  		   Posted 1/24/2004 9:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dragging the page with option-command (the hand-shaped tool) seems to take for-e-verrrrr, and it's very choppy. Also, simple things like dragging text or a tuplet bracket is very, very slow. I go to drag it and it takes a couple seconds before there's any reaction on the screen.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when after ALL that time and ALL those resources MakeMusic claimed to be putting into this release, it comes out so shoddy. I remember the biggest defenders saying that by waiting, we'd be ensured a superior product. Oh well, better luck next time.
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stringtapper
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  		   Posted 1/24/2004 10:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been using pencil and paper and sequencers like Reason for the last year-since I made the switch to OS X (I swore I wouldn't but now can't imagine any other way)- so I'm out of Finale practice and I'm having to relearn in a totally new version (I cut my teeth on 2001).
 
For the most part I think that the fact that 2004 is native is the only really "stunning" feature to me so far.  2004's presence on my dock is the biggest breakthrough I could hope for I guess.  I don't want to bash Make Music because I have no idea how to run a company, but I do hope that now that they have Finale carbonized they will start to develop some really great improvemnets in their software that will make the program as easy to use as Mac OS X itself is.
 
As far as choppines goes I have noticed a few things that never experienced in 2001-2003.  Such as playback playing notes that I just replaced or changed and me having to stop and update layout or press stop repeatedly to make it play what's on the screen.
 
Also, why have my old 2001 file icons changed to the new Finale icon style while my 2003 files have retained the lo-res style and now every new file I make in 2004 are saved as lo-res icons?!  Purely cosmetic but wierd nonetheless.
 
But as I said before, Finale 2004 is kind of like a girlfriend: your just happy she's there at all.
 
D

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rcameron
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  		   Posted 1/24/2004 11:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been a Mac Finale user since version 2.6.3 (yep, really). I've bought a lot of upgrades since then, and I stopped upgrading at version 2001. I have waited 3 years (THREE YEARS!!!) for an OS X-native version. I'm glad there's finally a version, but I'm really disappointed at what I'm reading. They had 3 years to make a good, solid version. I can understand a few little bugs, but speed problems should be unacceptable, as well as crashing.

I'm still ticked off that I have to turn virtual memory off in OS 9 when I want to use Internal Speaker playback because of the glitch between QuickTime 5 and Finale 2001. Was that fixed in later versions?

I like Finale. I don't use it often enough to warrant getting upgrade anymore, but I'm anxiously waiting for the day I read that the OS X version works and is optimized for OS X. Not backward steps. Let's see if they fix this in Finale 2004b...
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kaumann
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  		   Posted 1/25/2004 7:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well one new good feature is that AutoSave does not get me out off speedy entry frame.
This is very much needed in 2004! Because of frequent Finale crashes I needed to set my AutoSave to 2 minutes...

One more feature: Finale plays on background! ...but only until you click mouse button. So I still can't edit my sampler parameters while Finale is playing. This should be corrected, I will email this to MM.
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Konstantin Neergaard
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  		   Posted 1/25/2004 9:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree 100% about the speed problem! Uarrgh it's slow. In a lot of aspects... All the commands seems to give the program second thoughts about existence and meening of life... It's HORRIBLE. freaked

I'm dissapointed, realy. Firstly I was so happy to get the program running in OS X, but after working with it for a couple of days, I almost think it's a step backwards... sad

B/W G3 400 mHz, 448 Mb ram, OS 10.2.8

/JKN

Post Edited (Konstantin Neergaard) : 1/26/2004 12:53:57 PM GMT

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BobRock
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  		   Posted 1/25/2004 11:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anyways, seems as if lots of people are purchasing F2K4...
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sewer urchin
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  		   Posted 1/25/2004 12:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been up and running for a week and haven't experienced any of the glitches mentioned here. F2004 is much faster in Panther than 9.2.2 (in either Classic or OS 9), I can actually print from within the native application, I no longer have to reboot to erase quirky playback problems, and F2004 is far more stable than F2003 (in either Classic or OS 9). I just celebrated by dumping my OMS Extensions and saying goodbye to all the quirks and instabilities of F2003.

Putting aside all the emotions stemming from the delayed release, I'm very happy with the product itself.
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JazznMacntosh
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  		   Posted 1/25/2004 5:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey sewer urchin, out of curiosity, what are your computer/system specs? You seem to be one of the few people on this forum who's had a good experience with 2k4a. I actually haven't received my copy from MM yet, due to those shipping delays, but I just want to know what I can expect.

- Jake

P.S. I'm running OS 10.3.2 on a 1.25 GHz aluminum Powerbook G4 with 1 GHz RAM.

Post Edited (JazznMacntosh) : 1/25/2004 10:45:30 PM GMT

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dbmite
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  		   Posted 1/25/2004 6:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't understand what you guys are talking about in terms of Finale 2004 speed. I find this version to be incredibly fast and fluid. I see no jerkiness or slowdowns at all. If you have a G3 or slow G4 then it's not the program's fault. I have a 1 ghz G4 (upgraded from a 533 Mhz) and find the program to be incrediblely fast. (In comparison, I found Sibelius 3 to be slow and clunky and the final output to be rather amatuerish and sloppy.)

I am VERY happy with this release thank you! :-)
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Gordon
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  		   Posted 1/25/2004 7:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am quite satisfied with Finale 2004, but for one thing.
When I play back, I get stuttering in the audio. I notice it mostly with multi stave complex pieces, so I guess it is not handling all the notes. I use a G4 500mhz Powerbook with 750mb ram, which should be adequate. It could be my midi interface. I use an Edirol UA-20.

Gordon
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John Iafrate
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  		   Posted 1/26/2004 12:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not experiencing any problems like those either. I'm running a dual 867 with 10.2.6 and 512mb of ram. John Iafrate
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kaumann
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  		   Posted 1/26/2004 5:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Crashing:
I started to analyze F2004 crashes and I found out that they happen when you try to do things faster than Finale can handle, which is quite easy in F2004.
You can enter and delete notes in SpeedyEntry frame faster than Finale can display changes = crash. You can add/delete/nudge articulations faster than Finale can handle = crash. Etcetera...

I am planning to purchase 12''iBook but now I dont know if this is a good idea. It might be too slow for Finale.
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Erling Kroner
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  		   Posted 1/26/2004 6:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm really happy - that I chose to postpone my update until the 2004b version. I have had X (Jaguar) installed, but never use it. Stay with 9.2.2. Positively hate the looks of Mac X - but know I'll eventually have to switch. But wont do that until Finale is ready. Which it apparently is NOT. I'm keeping an eye out for improvements, here. If the 2004b doesn't do the job - I'll cancell my order and stay with 2002b (that I'm currently using in 9.2.2). I've stuck with my Quicksilver G4 867 Mhz single processor 'cause Classic is, at best, not usable at all. Who wants to constantly switch between 9.2.2, X and Classic? Not me. I've got work to do. (This is not just Finale related). And I'm NOT gonna port to what's-its-name? I need the top-line professional capabilities of the working versions of Finale. Until further notice that be 2002b. I've been with Finale since 1992 (Initially Music Prose eventually going to Finale where I've been since? well, for years.
erling
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TechSupport
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  		   Posted 1/26/2004 11:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
While we do monitor these forums periodically, please write directly to macsupport@makemusic.com or call (952)937-9703 for any problems or sluggishness you have with Finale 2004 for OS X. Calling or E-mailing directly will insure that you get precise, direct answers to your questions and issues.

Coda Tech

These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our technical support staff, please contact them directly via email at winsupport@makemusic.com or macsupport@makemusic.com or call 952-937-9703.

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SF2
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  		   Posted 1/26/2004 12:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I did send an email to Tech Support last week with no response. Since I received no response from MM my 2nd place to ask questions are in the forums.

I am really interested in the people who say the program is fast. Have you tried moving a tie?

Could it be that some of us received bad disks and which could explain why some of us are seeing such a bad release?

Steve
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dtoub
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  		   Posted 1/26/2004 1:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would second that about tech support-two e-mails, none of which have been answered in the past several days.

I am using an iBook 800 MHz with 640 MB RAM and while it is slow after playback ends, it has not been all that slow for me. However, I have not been doing any heavy editing yet, so we'll see. I do hope, however, that there is some facility made soon for the user to specify Preview over Acrobat for opening up the Help files. Preview is just so much faster (it takes over a minute for either Acrobat 6 or Reader to open on my machine, which is stupid)
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Forum Admin
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  		   Posted 1/26/2004 5:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
<<I did send an email to Tech Support last week with no response. Since I received no response from MM my 2nd place to ask questions are in the forums.>>

<<I would second that about tech support-two e-mails, none of which have been answered in the past several days.>>

Our Technical Support Department exists to answer every email and phone call they receive. They might not spell every word right, or always give exactly the answer you'd like, but they need to always answer. And I suspect they do, but am always willing to investigate further.

A worst-case scenario here would be that anti-spam software is preventing some legitimate emails from getting to us. If anyone has recently sent an email to macsupport@makemusic.com or winsupport@makemusic.com and not received a response after more than two workdays, please send me a private reply to this post. In the reply let me know (as best you can) when you sent the email, a best guess as to some of the terms in the subject line (if possible) and the email address from where you sent it. I'll either find your email and determine why you haven't received a reply, or I'll have valuable information with which our network administrator can troubleshoot our email system.

Thanks in advance for your help,
Scott

Scott Yoho, Manager of TS & QA
MakeMusic! Coda Music Technologies

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Jeff Hamburg
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  		   Posted 1/28/2004 4:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am still waiting for my 2K4. After reading this forum, I wonder if I should have ordered it at all. I too have been using Finale since version 2.0 on system 6. But after trying OSX and 9.2.1, I trashed everything and am back to 9.0 and Finale 2003, which works like a charm. Even the biggest orchestral pieces are no problem. I use a Virtuoso 2000, a Proteus 2 and a Yamaha TG100 and playback is never a problem on a G4 with just 384 MB ram. Okay, I can't multitask, I can't get my mail when playing music, and making a demo CD entails first recording to DAT, then back to my HD and then burning the CD, but, hey, the program is for composing and that is indeed what it does best.
What I want to know, are there more than ten people out there who are enjoying 2K4? Or is it the case that only those of you who are having problems visit this forum and those with no problems are working their tails off?
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Dave Hage
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  		   Posted 1/28/2004 6:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear All,

From my experience with various Macs, some of the speed issues you are seeing will be related to the speed/power of the graphics card and not necessarily the CPU. With OS X especially Panther, the more ram the better, but it will still not help a graphics card that does not support quartz extreme. The same has applied to Sibelius since it's port to OSX. It is very unlikely that Finale would cause a kernel panic without some underlying hardware problem, probably graphics or midi hardware related. As far as audio file creation and or playback, it would be a combination of CPU speed/hard drive speed and ram.
I am running 2004 on a G4 Powerbook 1Ghz with 1 GB ram it it tears along.

Hope this helps

Regards

Dave Hage
Dakota Music Service
www.dakotamusic.com
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John Iafrate
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  		   Posted 1/28/2004 8:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Dave;
I think your thoughts are excellent. I've noticed that some of these people that are having trouble are running older machines, and that means units that are only a year or two old that contain an older graphics card as well. It seems like they're always coming out with the "newer and better" model graphics card these days. Things change fast and I think your thoughts about the graphics card are especially warranted. Thanks for your input, John Iafrate

Post Edited (John Iafrate) : 1/28/2004 1:53:35 PM GMT

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SF2
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  		   Posted 1/28/2004 10:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello John and Dave,

I would like to believe your theory but can you explain why ALL of my other apps (PhotoShop, InDesign, various games) do not have a "graphics card" problems; the jerkyness seen when stretching out a hairpin, the delay when nudging a tie? If running a machine that I bought last year (see my specs in my initial post) works with more graphically intense programs and not Finale wouldn't you think that the problem lies somewhere within Finale?

Interesting theory but doesn't make sense to me.

Unfortunately I do not have a large band score that has been input from scratch in 2004 to see how the special tools affects larger scores (100+ measures). I have only been able to test upgraded files and it seems either the more measures or the more pages you have the slower the special tools palette's tie tool works. In previous versions it used to depend on your view percentage to determine how slow the Tie Adjustment tool would work but I do not see that anymore. It's slow at any view percentage. On the other hand I am booting back and forth from OS9 and OSX to see my speed options. I am assuming your laptop will not allow you to compare speed testing using the old OS and 2003.

Have you tried working with the Special tools palette and are you happy with the speed?

Steve
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