MakeMusic Forum

Home | Log In | Register | Search | Help

MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Edit final barline

Forum Quick Jump

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Manon L.
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/27/2003 6:00 PM (GMT -6)

This is my first post and I'm hoping that someone has an answer to my question. I've been reading this forum daily for the past few months, since upgrading to Finale 2004. I had only purchased Finale 2003 last year as a replacement for the now defunct Encore program which I used for years. I'm so used to struggling with "work-arounds" in my previous program that I'm sometimes surprised to find that there are such simple ways to achieve the desired appearance in Finale - if you only know the process. I hope that is the case once more.
So here's the question: How do you change the appearance of the final barline without changing the appearance of the initial left hand barline? I want the final barline to have a thicker heavy line. I know that you can go to

Options -
Document Options -
Barlines -
Heavy Line Thickness - and then change the thickness of the heavy line.

However when I do that, I also change the thickness of the initial left hand bar line at the begining of every double staff. I want that line to be grater than the normal barlines and slightly (though not by much) thinner than the heavy line of the final barline. I'm finding that the heavy line of the final barline in comparison to the rest of the normal barlines appears a little too thin - at least in this particular project. I'm publishing a Spanish language hymnal. I have chosen to not use any kind of a brace or bracket at the left side of the page - but rather a slightly thicker than usual barline to begin each grand staff (as the English language model for this project displays). When the barline at the beginning of the staff and thickest line of the final barline are identical it looks a little clubby to me. Thus my dilemma. Is there any way to design a custom final barline which will fill my need? I'm hoping that there is an easy fix which I can then apply to the 220 hymns which are ready (almost) for publication. I can't image you can't do it - I'm hoping it's another one of those obvious things I've overlooked. I've searched the manual and read every part of "barlines," "measure tool," "document options,". If I've missed something there, please point me in the right direction and I'll search it out again. It's just an appearance preference, but that's why I purchased Finale and not another program to replace Encore. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Manon L.

Finale 2004a (hoping for 2004b to fix "slowness" problems) - Windows ME

Hugh McKee
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2000
Total Posts : 23

Posted 12/27/2003 7:22 PM (GMT -6)

I suspect you will have to construct your own right hand barline and insert in on
top of the existing barline.

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/27/2003 9:29 PM (GMT -6)

There is a nice solution.

In the measure tool, select custom barline and either create the final barline from scratch, or copy and edit the one in the selection window. You can make the look anything you want. If it looks fine covering the given final barline, fine. If not, you can tell document options, barlines to turn off automatic final barline. You're in business!

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

Manon L.
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/28/2003 4:23 PM (GMT -6)

Thank you both for your responses.

I’ve never designed a tool in Finale before, but I’d very much like to become proficient at it. I’m adept at using graphics programs such as Adobe so I thought I’d not be too out of my league, but I’ve not totally resolved the problem.

Before Zuill’s response I’d fiddled with the shape designer in the measures menu. Since I didn’t see a likely suspect to edit, I proceeded to create what I’d like to see. However, it was not successful until I tried Zuill’s idea of removing the final barline first. Now the barline area is uncluttered and it’s a great improvement, however it’s still not quite satisfactory. In fact if I can't fix it, I'll have to scrap the idea.

The heavy line at the far right of the final barline now extends beyond the staff lines, hanging slightly out into the margin. I seem to have no control over where it is placed nor do I seem to have handles that I can drag to place it exactly where I’d like, once it’s in place in the document. I’ve tried moving it further and further to the left of the vertical line by editing it in the design window, but it doesn’t seem to make a difference in where Finale places the line when I’ve selected it and the designed shape is in place at the end of the measure. After checking the manual on 14-18, (measure - barlines) and chapter 25 - shape designer, I’m still not finding the clue. I guess it doesn’t act as a graphic with handles once accepted as a designed shape?? Am I just missing something here?

Since making a little progress I guess I’m getting greedy wanting to control where it puts the line - any idea how to move the newly designed barline further to the left to line up with the end of the staff lines? Again, thanks much for your help so far.

Manon L.

Finale 2004a (hoping for 2004b to fix "slowness" problems) - Windows ME

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/28/2003 4:55 PM (GMT -6)

The measure method is your best place to accomplish what you want. If you were to attach an example (a Finale file) of what you have so far, and how you want it to look, I will examine the file and see what I can do. That is the best way for me to help. It is do-able and very reliable in that tool.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 12/29/2003 2:08 AM (GMT -6)

Manon,

Take a look at the attached file. The final barline is a custom barline where the heavy line has a thickness of 4 points (the default thickness is 3 points). Is it something like this you are looking for?

Peter

File Attachment :
CustomFinalBarline.mus 3KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 420 time(s).

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/29/2003 12:32 PM (GMT -6)

That's exactly the method I've recommended. Thanks for posting the sample, Peter.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/29/2003 12:52 PM (GMT -6)

After looking at it again, and rereading the other posts, I see that it does stick out past the end of the staff. That can be corrected by dragging the system handle to the left in the Page Layout tool. The advantage to the measure tool method is that if you want it to extend between staves, it is done easily. With the expression shape method, you can create the same result (make sure the measure has a blank barline first). Than you don't need to adjust the system. However, making the barline extend between staves is trickier.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/29/2003 1:35 PM (GMT -6)

Rethinking Peter's sample, and creating one of my own, I think I've got a custom barline that is thicker, positioned correctly, and extends between the staves correctly. You can test this last aspect by selecting group attributes for barlines through staves.

Right click and "save file as" then open in 2004. (Sorry Peter that you can't open it in 2003).

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

File Attachment :
CustomFinalBarline New.MUS 60KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 375 time(s).

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 12/29/2003 2:06 PM (GMT -6)

Manon,

In case you don't know:

You can actually use a custom barline from another Finale document (e. g. a document from this forum).

First, save the document to your harddisk.

Next, open the document in Finale, and go to
File menu - Save Library...
In the Save Library dialog box, click "Shapes", and save the library, it will contain the custom barline.

To get the custom barline into your own document, open your own document, and go to
File menu - Load Library...

Peter

Manon L.
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/30/2003 12:43 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks again for responding Zuill and Peter. Sorry I haven’t sent a file sooner. Been practicing a piano accompaniment part for a recording session today. Also been fiddling around for hours with the barlines I drew in the custom barline in measures, as per your suggestions, and with the files I downloaded from both of you.

I’ve struggled for hours trying to make the barline appear as clean as possible on the screen. Now I’ve discovered that it depends on what view I use. At different magnifications each example, yours and mine, takes on a different appearance - sometimes appearing to have jags at the end - sometimes appearing to extend into the margin - sometimes resting too high or too low on the staff - all depending on whether you’re viewing at 75% or somewhere in between all the way to 1000%. I guess I was a little slow to pick up on this quirkiness. It would be nice if what you saw on the page was consistent between views. Is that a common problem? Even more curious is that what you see on the screen isn’t always consistent with what you see when it’s printed. Sometimes when it appears too high on the staff with a big jag below on screen, it prints out a little too low on the staff with the jag on top???? (Viewing on 17" flat screen monitor.)

Until just a few moments ago, I was not completely satisfied with any of the printed examples. Some appeared to have 5 tiny bumps extending beyond the barline which led me to believe that the barline was placed a little too far to the left. Most had a discrepancy at the top where you can see the end of the top staff line above the top of the thickest part of the barline. This produced a slight dip or wavy appearance - less noticeable to those who looked at it than the bumps, but nevertheless noticeable.

I think however that the problem is resolved. I’ve been using a LaserJet 4L printer, and at the last minute, before sending you a series of examples, hoping you could see the same things I was seeing, I tried printing on a LaserJet 5L instead. There’s a very big difference. With a page size of 6 x 8 ½ and the page then scaled in Finale to 83%, most of them only show as a slight wave at the very end of the line. One is very clean indeed.

Zuill, yours was eventually the cleanest. I plan to modify it slightly by widening the fine line a little and moving it slightly to the left. When I look at the design box in custom measures and examine your barline I don’t see the staff lines as I do when I open this box in my other files. Seeing the staff helped me know how long to make the vertical lines (I think!). Is there a mathematical approach instead of visual? Or is there a way to make the staff lines appear in the design box in the file you sent? If not, I’ll duplicate it and fiddle around with the copy. Thanks for pointing out it extends between staves as well. Though I don’t need it for this application, I’ll certainly save it for the future.

Also, Peter, thanks so much for your instructions about how to load the library, etc. and for the file - it looked so very clean and crisp on the screen, but had the little jag I was referring to, when printed. That got me to thinking a bit more “out of the box.” Thus, the happy solution to the problem.

Maybe I’ve been a little neurotic about this, but my aim is to have as clean a copy as possible. I realize that the final barline I desire is a little bold and has a more defined space between the two vertical lines than is standard. However, my experience is that when reprinting is done in less than ideal circumstances on inferior grade paper, that the original must be very sharp, and the lines not too fine nor close together, or the result is pretty unreadable. Not everyone in third world countries has access to quality printing, so I must plan for this.

I’m grateful to you both for helping me find a solution. It was your combined efforts which proved a success.

Manon L.

Attached file is the final line of “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” with Zuill’s barline.

By the way, the file below, on my screen shows significant amount of staff lines extending to the right of the barline at 248% magnification (totally unusable, I thought) and little jags at the far right edge, top and bottom, at 490% through 1000% (equally unusable). But the printed copy is fine! I’m glad I though to print it and didn’t give up with what I saw on the screen - or spend even more hours needlessly editing.

Finale 2004a (hoping for 2004b to fix "slowness" problems) - Windows ME

File Attachment :
Ven Oh Tu, La Fuente Eterna example1.MUS 74KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 375 time(s).

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 12/30/2003 2:10 PM (GMT -6)

Manon L. said...
...Zuill, yours was eventually the cleanest. I plan to modify it slightly by widening the fine line a little and moving it slightly to the left. When I look at the design box in custom measures and examine your barline I don’t see the staff lines as I do when I open this box in my other files. Seeing the staff helped me know how long to make the vertical lines (I think!). Is there a mathematical approach instead of visual? Or is there a way to make the staff lines appear in the design box in the file you sent?...

There IS a mathematical approach. Since the default music font is in size 24 points, the height of a staff is 24 points. So the length of the vertical lines in a custom barline should be 24 points. The rightmost line should extend 0.25 points (= a half staff line thickness) above and below the staff, thus having a total length of 24.5 points.

You can't make the staff lines appear in the file I posted, because I originally created the shape as an expression. But you CAN make them appear in the Shape Designer, if you create your own custom barline. Just follow these steps:

Measure Tool. Double-click the measure. The Measure Attributes dialog box appears.

In the upper icon row (the "Barline" row), click the rightmost icon (Custom), and click the button "Select..."
The Shape Selection appears. Click the button "Create..."

And you arrive in the Shape Designer which now displays staff lines.

See the attached example.

Peter

File Attachment :
CustomFinalBarline2.mus 3KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 416 time(s).

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 12/30/2003 7:35 PM (GMT -6)

Zuill said...
Rethinking Peter's sample, and creating one of my own, I think I've got a custom barline that is thicker, positioned correctly, and extends between the staves correctly. You can test this last aspect by selecting group attributes for barlines through staves...

OK, Zuill, I think I figured it out:
You have to draw 3 lines: a thin line, a thick line, and a thin line. Since Finale uses the centre of the rightmost line when positioning a custom barline, the rightmost line has to be a thin line. When overlapping each other, the thin rightmost line and the thick line will look as one, thick line.

See the attached example.

Peter

File Attachment :
CustomFinalBarline3.mus 3KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 370 time(s).

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/30/2003 7:56 PM (GMT -6)

Peter,

Your example looked fine, except your extra thin line was a tad too long when extended through the staves in a system, so I shortened it. there is some strange behavior regarding the positioning of the lines. I found that there was a certain point at which the line would be in the right position. Any further to the right in the editing window, and it sat past the end of the staff. Your solution is a good way to trick the system into doing what we want. Even though I would probably not have a need to use this barline, the exercise has given me more insight into the strange but true workings of Finale.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

Post Edited (Zuill) : 12/31/2003 4:25:11 AM GMT

Manon L.
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/30/2003 10:23 PM (GMT -6)

Peter wrote: "Since Finale uses the centre of the rightmost line when positioning a custom barline . . . "

I'm curious how you know this. Is it in help somewhere or just your observation? I'd like to learn more about how this tool works for projects in the future.

Manon L.

Finale 2004a (hoping for 2004b to fix "slowness" problems) - Windows ME

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/30/2003 11:26 PM (GMT -6)

I'm afraid there are just some things "they" don't want us to know.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

Tim Rowland
...Rowland...Rowland, though the streams are...

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 1250

Posted 12/30/2003 11:39 PM (GMT -6)

Manon L. said...
Peter wrote: "Since Finale uses the centre of the rightmost line when positioning a custom barline . . . "

I'm curious how you know this. Is it in help somewhere or just your observation? I'd like to learn more about how this tool works for projects in the future.

Manon L.

Well...without actually being bothered to try this (too hot today!), I would suggest making a custom barline as indicated, noting the position of the rightmost line in relation to other things, then make it noticeably thicker. It should be fairly obvious if the center of this fat line stays in the same spot or not.

Cheers,

Tim

Manon L.
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/31/2003 12:23 AM (GMT -6)

Yes, well it is obvious, of course. If you've tried out different widths in the "create" part of the design window it's pretty hard to miss. That's why I asked if it was just observation or something I could study. After fiddling around with this I've learned a lot, but I haven't found a lot of info in help. I was wanting to know if there was more thorough documentation about how it all worked -maybe some part of the manuel I've overlooked - in hopes of being more efficient in the future and wasting a lot less time. But I guess not. Thanks anyway.

Manon L.

Finale 2004a (hoping for 2004b to fix "slowness" problems) - Windows ME

Tim Rowland
...Rowland...Rowland, though the streams are...

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 1250

Posted 12/31/2003 1:52 AM (GMT -6)

Manon L. said...
Yes, well it is obvious, of course. If you've tried out different widths in the "create" part of the design window it's pretty hard to miss. That's why I asked if it was just observation or something I could study. After fiddling around with this I've learned a lot, but I haven't found a lot of info in help. I was wanting to know if there was more thorough documentation about how it all worked -maybe some part of the manuel I've overlooked - in hopes of being more efficient in the future and wasting a lot less time. But I guess not. Thanks anyway.

Manon L.

Manon,

You will actually find that lots of really cool things pop up that aren't documented, and even MakeMusic's tech support people are quite suprised. For instance, there is a dialogue box called "Accidental Settings". Here you can change horizontal and even default positioning, you can resize the accidental, even change the default font/character on a one-by-one basis. Try finding this in the manual! I only stumbled across this by right-clicking on the handle with the Special Tools-Accidental Mover Tool, and you get an 'edit' option. Just keep fiddling - it's the best way to learn some great things!

Cheers,

Tim

Forum Information

Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 6:54 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual