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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > The new notation program? | Forum Quick Jump
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Vaughan
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Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 11/6/2016 9:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | N. Grossingink said...
...Finale has a Measure Tool option called "Extra Space at Beginning/End of Measure". I use this feature extensively for a number of scenarios. Plus the ease with which articulations and expressions can be created, added and manipulated within a Finale file.
N.
I'm just curious what you use this feature for. I use it quite a bit, as well, but hen I use it, it's generally because Finale hasn't done something properly, like space the music in a measure or allow enough space for cross-layer accidentals.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB
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Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 11/6/2016 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | John Ruggero said...
...Will the program punish me for overriding the spacing of individual notes by making me type numbers in a menu? If so, I won't be able to use the program in spite of all its great automatic features...
Just for the sake of playing the devil's advocate, one could ask why would you would want to override the spacing of individual notes if the program does it well in the first place. I'll admit that it also makes me nervous if a notation program doesn't allow me to move notes horizontally manually but, when I think about it, whenever I've wanted to be able to do this, it was because Finale hadn't done it properly. Dorico even takes things like hairpins into consideration while spacing music, thereby avoiding squashed hairpins and removing the need for manual adjustment in such instances. Many complaints on this forum are from users who have reacted to poor spacing (sometimes as a result of user error) by dragging notes around with the mouse in the Speedy Entry frame or by using the note position tool in special tools. Using either of these handy manual editing tools in this way creates other problems, like poor vertical alignment, etc.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB
Amsterdam | | Back to Top | |
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Jetcopy
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2000
Total Posts : 4795
| Posted 11/6/2016 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Vaughan said...N. Grossingink said...
...Finale has a Measure Tool option called "Extra Space at Beginning/End of Measure". I use this feature extensively for a number of scenarios. Plus the ease with which articulations and expressions can be created, added and manipulated within a Finale file.
N. I'm just curious what you use this feature for. I use it quite a bit, as well, but hen I use it, it's generally because Finale hasn't done something properly, like space the music in a measure or allow enough space for cross-layer accidentals.
I also use this feature extensively. One example I use frequently is with rehearsal numbers. On instruments which are typically written higher in the staff (flutes, violins, etc...) often the first note is touching or too close to the rehearsal number. If I need to keep the positioning of the rehearsal number consistent, then it's necessary to move the notes slightly to the right in a specific measure.
How does Dorico deal with this situation?
Unrelated to this scenario. In Finale, grace notes in a score do not line up vertically if some grace notes contain ledger lines and other grace notes don't. What's Dorico's handling of this?
Retina Macbook Pro OSX 10.9.5, 2.5GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, El Capitan on separate drive | | Back to Top | |
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N. Grossingink
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991
| Posted 11/6/2016 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Vaughan said...N. Grossingink said...
...Finale has a Measure Tool option called "Extra Space at Beginning/End of Measure". I use this feature extensively for a number of scenarios. Plus the ease with which articulations and expressions can be created, added and manipulated within a Finale file.
N. I'm just curious what you use this feature for. I use it quite a bit, as well, but hen I use it, it's generally because Finale hasn't done something properly, like space the music in a measure or allow enough space for cross-layer accidentals.
I make lots of small adjustments similar to what Jetcopy has described, usually no more than 1/2 space. To make room for "other stuff". Additionally, I'll add 2 or 3 spaces to the end of a whole note measure, in order to widen the measure in a way that survives music spacing. This is for those whole notes that have a crescendo wedge visually placed to start mid-measure.
Another scenario is where upstem beamed 16ths appear at the end of a measure - the last stem usually crowds the right barline. Adding 1/2 space fixes this.
I'm an "extra space" maniac.
N.
OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work
Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients
(Finale v25 - not interested yet)
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
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John Ruggero
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820
| Posted 11/6/2016 1:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Vaughan said...
Just for the sake of playing the devil's advocate, one could ask why would you would want to override the spacing of individual notes if the program does it well in the first place. I'll admit that it also makes me nervous if a notation program doesn't allow me to move notes horizontally manually but, when I think about it, whenever I've wanted to be able to do this, it was because Finale hadn't done it properly.
As good as it might be, I have my doubts about the infallibility of Dorico's spacing, having already run into basic issues at Notat.io
But even if it reaches "perfection", there is the question of personal taste. And this can not always be set on a global basis.
I also sense basic mistrust of the user by the designers of the program. That bothers me deeply.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com
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Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 11/6/2016 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Even in version 1.0, Dorico vertically aligns grace notes correctly, and it also spaces them correctly, something Finale is still unable to do. The examples of needing to add space at the beginning of the bar to make room for rehearsal numbers or at the end to keep from crowding a final stem, or to move notes manually to make space for or to align chord symbols properly are all examples of inadequacies in Finale's abilities. As an example: rehearsal numbers are shifted to make room for top staff elements which would otherwise collide with it, and this is taken care of intelligently and automatically for score and parts separately. Also, I haven't yet seen a crowded final stem in a bar. For the longtime users among us it's hard to escape a distrust of automation or the perceived need for ubiquitous manual tweaking but this attitude is based on our experience with a program which needs manual adjustment at many turns.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB
Amsterdam | | Back to Top | |
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Knut
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 601
| Posted 11/6/2016 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Michel R. E. said...
I've seen people complain about Finale's steep learning curve, but it would seem that Dorito is worse in that respect.
I strongly suspect this is true only for those with intimate familiarity with another scoring application.
On a more general note: My early frustrations with Finale (particularly the infamously buggy Finale 2004) lead me to switch to Sibelius, only to discover, as my engraving knowledge and skills developed, what made Finale the superior option.
John Ruggero put it beautifully in a recent post on the notatio forum:
John Ruggero said...
For me, the best computer tool for engraving will do the things that a computer does best supremely well, but also honor and facilitate the things that a human does best.
This is what it's all about for me as well, and I won't ever choose Dorico over Finale unless it can provide me with the same quality of output, even if it's somewhat faster and easier to use. That being said, some of Dorico's current engraving and layout features would save me huge amounts of time in tedious manual work, so I am very hopeful that Dorico will become exactly what I'm looking for in a scoring app: the best of both worlds, so to speak. Finale, on the other hand, has seemed much less concerned with improving it's abilities as an engraving tool, which leads me to a final point:
Dorico's focus on automation may indeed prove to be a bad thing for those of us willing to spend days tweaking a score to perfection or discussing engraving minutiae on online forums into the wee hours of the morning. For the vast majority of users, however, not to mention for those poor players who have to deal with badly notated and engraved music on a daily basis, I think an application that will automate very sophisticated tasks to produce correctly notated, well-engraved music with minimal effort for the vast majority of situations will be most welcome. After all, users dabbling in the finer points are likely to be in a very small minority, regardless of the ability of the software they use.
Edit: Vaughan, I took some time writing my post, so forgive me for parroting some of your points above.
13" MacBook Pro 2.8 Ghz. Intel Core i5, 16 GB RAM, Apogee Duet 2, Samsung SyncMaster 245b
OSX 10.9.5, Finale 2011c and 2014b (not using it yet) w/GPO & JABB, Patterson Plug-Ins, TG-Tools and QuickKeys 4; Sibelius 6, Logic Pro X, Adobe CS3, FontLab Studio 4, FontExplorer X Pro 3Post Edited (Knut) : 11/6/2016 6:28:40 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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Mike Halloran
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2009
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 11/7/2016 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | | John Ruggero said...
...And even if this were fixed, I would never use a program that uses number input for tasks that are better suited to a mouse. It is too unpleasant and inefficient....
Ahhhh... handicapped users will be unable to use it. Thanks for the heads up.
No reason for me to waste any more time on Dorico. That includes reading about it.
Mike Halloran
Finale 25.1 & 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.0.7
2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad w/ OWC eSATA mod, 20G RAM, OS 10.12.1, 2T SSD
DP 9.1, 8.07, 7.24, Logic Pro X 10.2.4, DSP-Quattro, PSP, IK, NI, Eventide, Izotope & Antares plugins
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N. Grossingink
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991
| Posted 11/7/2016 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Another thing to remember about Dorico is that the music font must be SMuFL compliant. That's likely to be a big/impossible hurdle for publishers and individuals who favor a custom or 3rd party font. The font designed for Dorico, Bravura, is indeed a very classy font and should satisfy most.
Speaking of SMuFL, I've been given to believe that Make Music is somehow associated with the organization that has pioneered this particular standard. That begs the question, when will Maestro become SMuFL compliant, and how incomplete or screwed up will its first appearance be?
N.
OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work
Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients
(Finale v25 - not interested yet)
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
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John Ruggero
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820
| Posted 11/7/2016 11:31 AM (GMT -6) | | N. Grossingink said...
when will Maestro become SMuFL compliant
I asked this question on this forum and received the following response:
forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=483981
I much prefer the Maestro Font to Bravura and would not switch to Dorico on that basis alone. Bravura is, however, a useful repository of symbols not available in Maestro, and in some cases has for me better versions of certain characters, like the tremolo slashes, for example.
Jetcopy said...
The automation is what I have always disliked about Sibelius. When using Sibelius, I felt as if the programmers thought the program was "smarter" than the user and the program knew what was best.
+1
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com
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