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Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 12/24/2016 11:29 AM (GMT -6)

We have only one week remaining in this quick and convenient way of getting almost-instant support, detailed discussions and tutorials by users.

After year end you can find me and some of the other old hands trying to carry on the tradition of users supporting users at: www.finaleforum.com/ and on FaceBook at /www.facebook.com/groups/finalepower/

Blessings of the season to everyone reading this, including MM staff. I will miss you, unless you chose to join us at one of the above locations.

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

ebiggs1
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 722

Posted 12/24/2016 11:44 AM (GMT -6)

I have no idea why they feel the need to close this site but I really don't see why we can't make their 'new' site just as good.

Actually I have no idea why the new MM does a lot of the things they do. Maybe it is out with the old and in with the new, or some such.
Why a user needs third party plug-ins to do the things Finale 25 should do on its own as part of the software, is my biggest unbelief. Removing scanning to prevent copyright is another?

Does anybody remember removing the icons?

Music makes the difference!
Finale 2014.5 *-* Finale 25
Dell XPS 8500 Intel Core i7 CPU @ 3.40GHz
16 GB RAM, 64 bit OS Windows 10

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 12/24/2016 11:47 AM (GMT -6)

Yes, I remember when they stripped icons from the Windows version to make it look like the Mac version. Another major mistake on their part--an example of philosophy trumping reality.

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 12/24/2016 11:52 AM (GMT -6)

Here's hoping they take our criticisms of the new forums seriously and improve them, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen soon. Meanwhile, finaleforum.com seems fine, if those in need of help can find it.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146

Posted 12/24/2016 12:02 PM (GMT -6)

ebiggs1 said...
I have no idea why they feel the need to close this site but I really don't see why we can't make their 'new' site just as good.

We can't make the new site as good, because it was horribly designed, and lacking almost every feature that we depend on. What's more, they have turned a deaf ear to all of our complaints and suggestions, as though we were a bunch of know-nothings.

Other than that, no reason...

Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

Derrek
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 2347

Posted 12/24/2016 12:06 PM (GMT -6)

If the new site takes off, there will be increasing problems as the number of users scale up. It is only barely workable now because so few use it. I don't expect MM to realize this, since they presumably have user-management tools that the site users need but do not have.

Finale 2014.5, Finale 25.1 - Windows 7 (64-bit)
GPO 5, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum, Dorico)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

ebiggs1
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 722

Posted 12/24/2016 12:21 PM (GMT -6)

"they have turned a deaf ear to all of our complaints and suggestions, as though we were a bunch of know-nothings."

I hope not only they don't live to regret that but I hope we don't regret it either. Maybe later as in too late!

Music makes the difference!
Finale 2014.5 *-* Finale 25
Dell XPS 8500 Intel Core i7 CPU @ 3.40GHz
16 GB RAM, 64 bit OS Windows 10

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 12/24/2016 12:33 PM (GMT -6)

The new site seems to be oriented towards "Problem...SOLVED!" as if one can tick off Finale's quirks and complexity and be done with them, which seems like wishful thinking. If they can save money on customer support and put it into software developement, though, I'm all for it.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146

Posted 12/24/2016 2:02 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
If they can save money on customer support and put it into software developement, though, I'm all for it.

This remains to be seen. Meanwhile, the new "solved" system certainly doesn't lend itself to the dialogue and follow-up that we're used to.

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/24/2016 3:21 PM (GMT -6)

One thing they won't have to hear if we move to off-site forums: our complaining. That might be their primary goal. Out of sight, out of mind. One thing that I will be doing is to file many more official support tickets. Many, many more. What they save by shutting down the phone support and moving to the featureless new forum will have to be made up by hiring more people to answer support tickets. or, maybe the lag time will get longer.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Zoots
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 385

Posted 12/24/2016 4:54 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
The new site seems to be oriented towards "Problem...SOLVED!" as if one can tick off Finale's quirks and complexity and be done with them, which seems like wishful thinking. If they can save money on customer support and put it into software developement, though, I'm all for it.

IMO, that is exactly the idea. They've looked into cutting support costs and have come up with this software solution that allows problems to be posted, examined and when seemingly solved, mark it closed. The support department likely has a metric of how many calls closed per month so the more closed the better. Discussion and other possible ways of solving the problem is not of concern and the software can't handle problem closed but we'll leave it open for discussion.

It is an unfortunate reality in that bean-counters are unable to look at anything other than things like number of calls, number closed and then the big one - how much is this support costing. The more unfortunate thing is that they are often unable to realize that without good support the product becomes unworkable and thus undesirable to the customers. Couple that dose of reality with how much money did your support department bring into the company (usually $0.00 unless they sell support services) and you can see how popular providing support is at the financial level. This is why companies try all sorts of cost-saving initiatives even if they may well flop.

Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 12/24/2016 5:27 PM (GMT -6)

If the MM staff actually has to look at each report, that may be a silver lining. How many people have complained about the temp file issue, a very serious problem, only to have it ignored? Other things have come up here again and again for years. Maybe if they get tired of seeing them they'll be more strongly motivated to fix things.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146

Posted 12/24/2016 6:07 PM (GMT -6)

They mark a problem "solved" even when it isn't, like when it's a problem in the software.

"I can reproduce the problem you're referring to, and I've forwarded it to the developers (i.e., the Black Hole of Calcutta) for correction in the next version. Solved!"

Not.

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 12/25/2016 7:34 AM (GMT -6)

So, if MM is doing all this in order to cut expenses, then why are they throwing away this invaluable free service they have been getting for years? Face it, we here do the lion's share of support and we never ask for a penny.

To give you an idea of what we would cost them if they were paying us, on my last contract for supporting computer systems I was paid $500/day (and the contracting authority was getting a cut on top of that). True that was 12-15 years ago. These days my per diem would be $650-700 and folks like Zuill would be worth much more than that.

Is anyone at MM reading this and adding up the figures?

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Post Edited (Ron.) : 12/25/2016 6:38:11 AM (GMT-6)

ebiggs1
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 722

Posted 12/25/2016 9:25 AM (GMT -6)

It can not be a cost thing. Operating this site can't cost very much. Especially since it has been established for so long. Bought and paid for a little maintenance.

Music makes the difference!
Finale 2014.5 *-* Finale 25
Dell XPS 8500 Intel Core i7 CPU @ 3.40GHz
16 GB RAM, 64 bit OS Windows 10

Post Edited (ebiggs1) : 12/25/2016 10:35:57 AM (GMT-6)

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/25/2016 10:50 AM (GMT -6)

I just discovered MakeMusic is selling online courses for learning Finale, at a cost. Does anyone know anything about these courses? Just curious to hear how effective they are. It doesn't take much to learn Finale. I am wondering why anyone would pay for an online course for something that should be able to be figured out with the tutorials, videos, and documentation, along with a bit of common sense. Maybe they figure those courses will replace the contributions of community, and the fees charged will boost MakeMusic revenue.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 12/25/2016 11:16 AM (GMT -6)

Lynda.com has been offering online Finale F2012 and F2014 courses for a number of years.

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

Windows 10 Professional (x64) (build 10586)

3.50 gigahertz Intel Core i7-5930K, Multi-core (6 total), Hyper-threaded (12 total)

32638 Megabytes Usable Installed Memory, 17514.37 Gigabytes Usable Hard Drive Capacity
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 - 4GB [Display adapter]

ASUS Rampage V Extreme motherboard, Realtek HD Audio

Finale 2014.5.6359, Finale 25.2.0.92
Garritan GPO4.02

Cakewalk SONAR X3 - (X3e build 244) - x64, Sound Forge Audio Studio 10.0, Audacity 2.1.0
Sharpeye 2.68, PhotoScore Ultimate 7.0.2, SmartScore X2 Pro 10.5.8

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 12/25/2016 11:23 AM (GMT -6)

What is the link for Make Music's online course?

N.

OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls

Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146

Posted 12/25/2016 11:49 AM (GMT -6)

www.finalemusic.com/training

heinzfan
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 1999
Total Posts : 95

Posted 12/25/2016 1:07 PM (GMT -6)

Sorry for the doofus question, but is www.finaleforum.com an independent site unaffiliated with MakeMusic? If so will we have to see which site the always-helpful power users gravitate to? I'm only a hobbyist but when I'm stumped and can't find an answer in the user manual a forum search often reveals that the same problem has already been posted and answered.

Windows 7 64 bit; Finale 2014c

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 12/25/2016 1:37 PM (GMT -6)

True http://www.finaleforum.com has nothing to do with MakeMusic.

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 12/25/2016 1:38 PM (GMT -6)

heinzfan said...
Sorry for the doofus question, but is www.finaleforum.com an independent site unaffiliated with MakeMusic? …

Yes, it is an independent site unaffiliated with MakeMusic, and MakeMusic is not monitoring it.

Although you can use the independent finaleforum to discuss your wishes/requests for Finale features (not a bad idea), MakeMusic will not be aware of your thoughts until you make an official request at MakeMusic’s web site.

heinzfan said...
… If so will we have to see which site the always-helpful power users gravitate to? …

Some of them already have joined the independent finaleforum, like e. g. David Ward, gogreen (= Arthur J. Michaels), shnootre (= Daniel Sonenberg), Ronald J Brown, John Ruggero, motet, Zoots, Michel R E, zuill, snorlax (= Jim Williams), OCTO, Knut, Harpsi, N Grossingink, Perotinus, Christopher Smith, winknotes (= Steve Winkler).

It remains to be seen whether they will be active in the independent finaleforum or in MakeMusic’s new Help Center, or in both.

Peter

Mac Finale, 2014d, 2014.5 & v25.2, Mac OS X 10.12.2, iMac Intel Core i7, 4 GHz, 32 GB RAM

ttw
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2005
Total Posts : 776

Posted 12/25/2016 1:40 PM (GMT -6)

heinzfan said...
Sorry for the doofus question, but is www.finaleforum.com an independent site unaffiliated with MakeMusic? If so will we have to see which site the always-helpful power users gravitate to? I'm only a hobbyist but when I'm stumped and can't find an answer in the user manual a forum search often reveals that the same problem has already been posted and answered.

This forum has always been my third step in solving a problem. The first two are noodling around the program the trying the MM support list of problems. I never have much luck trying to find things in the manual. My questions may have answers but I cannot guess the keywords that the manual assumes I'd look for.

I'll be gone after for a while after the New Year; then I'll start dropping in on finaleforum every day or so.

Finale 2014.5, 25
GWI, GPO4, GPO5, JABB 3, Steinway Basic, COMB2

Windows 10 Pro HP Envy Desktop
Windows 10 Home HP Portable

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 12/25/2016 1:55 PM (GMT -6)

Peter: I am working hard on finaleforum.com to make it a success. I have a round of sites I go to during idle moments several times a day. MakeMusic's forum has been my first stop for several years. By the end of the week, finaleforum.com will be my first stop and MakeMusc will be gone from my daily rounds.

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146

Posted 12/25/2016 3:14 PM (GMT -6)

Ron,
I've noticed, and your input is extremely welcome!

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