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David Ward
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834

Posted 8/21/2016 8:02 AM (GMT -6)

OCTO. said...
How about to enter with the Simple Entry as I do?

I'm very far from fluent in Simple Entry, but there definitely seems to be a substantial delay adding further notes (I haven't deleted my earlier effort) when I try with Simple.

David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d & 2014.5 with Mac 10.9.5 & 10.11.6
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK

wolfwro
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 506

Posted 8/21/2016 10:35 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Octo,

entering on my imac (3,2Ghz, i5) 32GB RAM in Finale 25:

Pageview, simple entry: very slight delay in maximum zoom, but no Beach Ball.
Speedy: slight delay.
Scroll view: no delay

cheers,

wolf

-intel 27" imac 3,2 (i5) Ghz 32 GB RAM MAC OSX 10.11.6
-Macbook pro 2,6 (i5) Ghz, 16GB RAM, MAC OSX 10.11.6
German version of Finale 98-2007c/English: 2008b-2014d, 2014.5
M-Audio Keystation49

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 8/21/2016 11:39 AM (GMT -6)

Hi David: my testing was showing that Finale will slow down if you're rendering lots of music on the screen. Given the density of Octo's test file, I would likely work on it around 250% and like you, alternate between scroll and page view depending on my task. Anything above 100% is instant for me. Of course, your mileage may vary depending your system, workflow, and stuff.
Octo: I've looked through this thread a few times and have yet to note where you mention what view percentage and page view settings your using. Just saying it is really hard to have a meaningful discussion if it isn't clear what your steps are or what your objective is. Furthermore, if you're doing same tests in MuseScore, I'd be curious what those steps and timings are.

Cheers,

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

Wess
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 277

Posted 8/21/2016 5:48 PM (GMT -6)

In order to check the responsiveness of the last version I attempt a test using OCTO's set up and input some non-sense notes.
The test presents a single page with even less bars compared to the original empty template.
The navigation (using "Grab tool" or Mouse scroller or on MAC) is incompatible for graph software issued in 2016.

I tested it on my iMAC late 2013, CPU – I7 3.5 GHz, 24 GB RAM, GPU – Nvidia 775 with 2 GB RAM, SSD SATAIII

The lag on this single page is so sluggish and apparently this version (and both previous 2014 and 2014.5, too) can not be used for such dense projects.
Exported as 2012 the situation is slightly better but I was surprised when I checked the same content opened (via XML) in Sibelius 7.5.

The difference in speed is incompatible running this test on the same iMAC.
Large files Saving in Sibelius is fast as seen on all pre-2014 version.
There are also possibility to export the music content as previous version till 2.0 and their flat format does not need "special attention" when saving.
I know that OS X' antialiasing filter is something that makes recent Mac versions much slower than WIN version.
However Sibelius utilises the same OS and recently works blazingly fast compared to Finale.

Why the MM developer do not find the right code?
Speaking yesterday with friend of mine from Oslo he told me: "All my program run very fast on my new Mac with only one exception ... Finale."

Should it be like that, MM, and if "yes" why then?

Finale 2014 and earlier...
________________________________________
iMac 27" (late 2013) i7-3.50GHz, Nvidia 775 2GB, 24 GB RAM, 1 TB Fusion drive. Mavericks 10.9.2
External A+B: 1TB SSD Samsung EVO 840 + 4 TB WD Black (Thunderbolt/USB3 enclosure)
External C: 2TB WD via FireWire800 (Thunderbolt-FireWire 800 adapter)
Second monitor: HP LP2475w (Thunderbolt-HDMI cable)

Macbook pro 17" (2009) 2.80 GHz, RAM 8 GB, 500GB SSD Samsung EVO 840

MIDI: hybride piano
YAMAHA Avant Grand N1

CUSTOM MUSC FONTS & SAMPLES – VintageGHMA (Henle) & VintageECP1 (Peter's)

Post Edited (Wess) : 8/21/2016 5:55:12 PM (GMT-5)

File Attachment :
Untitled LARGE 25 - test.musx 659KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 311 time(s).

File Attachment :
Untitled LARGE 25 - test.mus 283KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 327 time(s).

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 8/21/2016 11:18 PM (GMT -6)

Dear Michael Johnson,

I have used View at 600 or 800%.
I use "Single page" view.
The delay is enough in Simple Entry. What I mean "enough" is that test was done by using with a very limited number of information (a few notes).

The definitely delay is present in re-calculation of note spacing, as I can see.
Can you check that? I am happy that other users report back (using OS X) so that I can be assured something is wrong with my system.

MuseScore - the delay is not present at any level, similar as I would work in a four instrument score.

NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older.

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 8/21/2016 11:22 PM (GMT -6)

P.S. I have tested Wess' file, and have got short rainbows always as well flickering note-heads (they become "fat" somehow for a short time - a kind of graphical thing). Therefore the lag is even more obvious in that files.
UPDATE: Sorry, the file was opened in v.2014.5 In v25 no flickering but the lag persists (I enter note, wait for 2-3 sec). Seems that note-spacing algorithm is the issue.

NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older.

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 8/21/2016 11:26:32 PM (GMT-5)

jasako
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 440

Posted 8/22/2016 6:56 AM (GMT -6)

I've been using Finale 25 for a week or so now with a file of 680 bars, 75 staff systems and over 71000 frames.
I'm finding things are much improved seed-wise compared to 2014.5.
Page view is still significantly slower than scroll view, but much better than previously. Single page is more responsive than Current spread or Looseleaf: Row.
Dragging staves with the Staff Tool is also much improved and it was this in 2014.5 that was starting to drive me nuts more than anything else, as were significant delays in selecting items in Page View.
My iMac is getting on (2011 model 27" with 8G of RAM) and over due for an upgrade so I'm looking forward to better performance still on a new machine with 16G.

Adelaide Australia
(In the middle, down the bottom)
iMac 2.7 Ghz Intel Core i5
Macbook Air
OSX Yosimite 10.10.5
Finale 2014.5.7098
Finale 2014.c.v4736
GPO 4
Acorn Masterkey 61

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 8/22/2016 10:19 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Octo:
Automatic Music Spacing and Automation Update Layout have always slowed Finale down. It is on the radar to address such issues, but not in the short term.
Cheers,

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 8/22/2016 11:59 AM (GMT -6)

The file Octo posted doesn't present a problem on Windows with my 10-year-old desktop, so I suspect it's more than just a Finale architecture issue.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Wess
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 277

Posted 8/22/2016 4:30 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
The file Octo posted doesn't present a problem on Windows with my 10-year-old desktop, so I suspect it's more than just a Finale architecture issue.

Thank you, Motet for this information.
Many users, including me too, already suspect that the slow performance seen by last versions of Finale is only Mac issue.

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 9/1/2016 11:20 PM (GMT -6)

Michael Johnson said...
Hi Octo:
Automatic Music Spacing and Automation Update Layout have always slowed Finale down. It is on the radar to address such issues, but not in the short term.
Cheers,

I am sorry to hear.

I think other products are on the radar for me. Having been with Finale for past 17 years, I am now more than sure it is my last year.

NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older.

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 9/1/2016 11:28:54 PM (GMT-5)

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 9/7/2016 2:14 PM (GMT -6)

Dear Octo
Thank you for your use of the product all these years. We will continue to improve Finale; you are always welcome to try the free demo version as your leisure.
I wish you well.
Sincerely,

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 9/8/2016 3:57 AM (GMT -6)

I would like to STRESS a need to improve Finale on OS X platform.

If Finale 2014 and v25 is slower than Finale 2011, on the stronger machine, than what is the reason for updates?
There is an URGENT need to improve Finale's speed on OS X, and I hope this will be released very soon in the next update of V25.

I speak here as one who uses Finale for extremely complex and dense projects.

You need to help us.

NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older.

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 9/8/2016 10:50 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Octo:
I couldn't agree more. Speed of Finale on mac is an issue. For me, it is the top priority on Mac.
Cheers,

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

Jeremy Levy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 811

Posted 9/8/2016 5:25 PM (GMT -6)

Michael,

Glad to hear Mac speed is a top priority. I would like to make sure we're all talking about the same thing. I find on my system, Finale 2014 and up run much quicker when it's just my laptop screen, compared to my usual work setup plugged into a 28" monitor, running at the equivalent of 2560x1440. Finale 2011 and 2012 have no problem at that resolution. I'm running 2014 and up in low resolution mode, so there is no difference there.

Is there any possibility of Finale using hardware graphic acceleration to smooth out graphics performance in the future? Finale is the only pro audio application where I have sluggishness of scrolling and basic operation in and out of windows.

Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
OSX 10.9.5

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 9/11/2016 11:52 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Jeremy:
Thanks for your support and question. Finale absolutely needs to be able to utilize graphic acceleration in the future. Yes, Finale is behind the competition in this regard - depressing to say and admit. Finale had optimized what it could for many years. But, the OS had changed rendering routines and then graphic cards got in on the action. Finale has to change to be viable. It will be no small feat, if it had been we would have done it by now. But, it is the next big thing on the list.

Cheers,

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

A.S.
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 629

Posted 9/12/2016 3:04 AM (GMT -6)

Michael Johnson said...
Hi Jeremy:
Thanks for your support and question. Finale absolutely needs to be able to utilize graphic acceleration in the future. Yes, Finale is behind the competition in this regard - depressing to say and admit. Finale had optimized what it could for many years. But, the OS had changed rendering routines and then graphic cards got in on the action. Finale has to change to be viable. It will be no small feat, if it had been we would have done it by now. But, it is the next big thing on the list.

Cheers,

Hi Michael,

This is good to hear. But just to make sure I understand you correct: Will you make sure that Finale will be fast enough even for those of us with larger Retina monitors?

At the moment I have to use my brand new iMac 27 in Finale's low res mode. Would be great to be able to use the 4k resolution from the Retina screen (which is fantastic with Finale btw. It's just too slow to work with.)

Cheers and thanks for taking part in these discussions. It is very much appreciated.

A.S.

iMac 27" 5K Retina 4 GHz i7, 24 GB RAM, Mac OS 10.10.5 + 30" Cinema Display
Finale 2014d, GPO 4.0, VSL (SE, Strings SE+, Woodwind & Brass download instr), VE Pro, Vienna Suite, Xsample Chamber Ensemble

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 9/12/2016 10:58 AM (GMT -6)

Hi A.S.
Of course your mileage may vary and "fast enough" is rather vague, but yes, large Retina is modern and we must to be modern.
For me, Finale is a tool and the tool should never, or perhaps rarely, get in the way of creativity and productivity. Just like music, the instrument should be an extension of the musician. We're not there yet and I sincerely appreciate your patience.
Glad I can offer a little help and insight.
Cheers,

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

Jeremy Levy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 811

Posted 9/12/2016 11:16 AM (GMT -6)

A.S.

My monitor is also 4K, so I feel your pain. It's excruciatingly slow running in Hi-Res mode. It's a drag seeing Digital Performer and Cubase perform so well in Retina mode, and then having to go back to blurry text in Finale because the screen rendering can't keep up. FYI, Sibelius is almost as bad in Retina mode.

The good news is that it's not very noticeable in low-res mode if you run your 4K monitor in high resolution scaled mode. Everything is small enough that it still looks fine.

Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
OSX 10.9.5

David Ward
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834

Posted 9/12/2016 3:00 PM (GMT -6)

I'm now being hit by Finale's grinding almost to a halt in page view (F 2014.5 with OS 10.11.6) in my present project. I alternate between page and scroll view. When I return to page view, I need to reposition the score on my portrait oriented monitor before doing anything else. After about half an hour of work, this becomes almost uncontrollable. Yesterday I had the surreal experience of trying to reposition the score and then watching it refuse to stop moving. With a series of small jerks it kept going until it had exited stage left in its entirety (this process took at least a minute).

A relaunch of Finale both settles and speeds things for a while; but not for long. This is an opera, with all that implies for layout, stage directions &c &c, but as these things go its demands on Finale are quite modest and it is a very long way from being the largest or most complex score I have typeset in Finale. It's for quite modest forces (as these things go) and uses a maximum of about 53 staves (or thereby). I've found it convenient to divide the piece into eleven separate files (so nothing hugely long). Nearly (if not quite) all the notation is 'traditional', there are no very complex or independent time signatures &c.

Anyway, the regular need to relaunch Finale is beginning to get annoying. A seriously dense and complex score like some of those by OCTO would, I think, be impossible to manage as things are at present without a radically different set-up.

Post Edited (David Ward) : 9/12/2016 3:07:46 PM (GMT-5)

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 9/12/2016 6:53 PM (GMT -6)

Hi David:
We addressed some speed issues around time signature changes in the latest version. Have you tried the demo of v25 to see if that helps? I'm just curious.
Cheers,

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

David Ward
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834

Posted 9/13/2016 5:22 AM (GMT -6)

Michael Johnson said...
… … Have you tried the demo of v25 to see if that helps? I'm just curious.

No. I'm leaving that until after I've finished the first complete Finale draft of my current project (ETA mid-October) and also until there is full availability of Jari's plugins for v25 (I'm so dependent on these for my way of working that I can't really test it without them).

Michael Johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317

Posted 9/13/2016 12:44 PM (GMT -6)

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 9/14/2016 1:31 AM (GMT -6)

Dear Michael,

I don't want to be repetitive, and I guess you would agree.

MM's product Finale is used by many professional editors for their publications. Music created by Finale is used by the top-class performers worldwide.

The latency problem (slowness, non responsiveness, etc) is de facto killing Finale - I don't want to say how important it is for your business - and for our business. But we have alternatives.

I think that not years but months or to say - weeks are working against you. If it is not fixed sooner, I predict really a bad outcome.

NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM

Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older.

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 9/14/2016 10:26 AM (GMT -6)

+1!

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Robert Patterson plugins, waiting for Tobias' and Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.11.6
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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