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Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 12/6/2016 3:26 PM (GMT -6)

Maybe this is a problem in earlier versions too - not sure.

Most of my music has no key, but every now and then, I'll have a section with a key signature.

If you set your score up to be keyless (and go in and deal with each transposing instrument so it is chromatic - something older versions of Finale did, but Fin 25 doesn't seem to anymore), but then have a section that is in a key, you'll encounter a strange problem.

For instance - I'm working on an opera scene that goes like this: keyless; F maj; keyless; g minor.

The correct thing to do (I figured out), is to create a staff style for each transposing instrument, and apply it when the piece is in an actual key. That solves the problem.

But if you don't...what happens is most strange. For instance, for the Bb clarinet, it starts w/ no key sig. Then, when the piece changes to F maj (concert pitch), the Bb clarinet's key sig changes also to 1 flat (i.e. the same as all the concert pitch instruments). The transposition is correct, but the key sig is not. So all the notes are actually written a whole step louder than they sound (when the key sig is factored in).

This is obviously a bug, or maybe an oversight. There is no circumstance when I would want the Bb clarinet's key sig to be the same as the non-transposing instruments!

As I said, the staff style fixes it (just set the style to be a regular diatonic transposition for that instrument).

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/6/2016 3:54 PM (GMT -6)

The way this is working is the way it has always worked.

So, if you let us know what you want, we might be able to figure it out. If you want the proper key signature for the instrument, don't choose chromatic. If you want no key signature and show all accidentals, check the box for that.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 12/6/2016 3:58 PM (GMT -6)

Sorry Zuill, that is not the answer.

I want the possibility to have a movement start keyless, then move to having a key, and then be keyless again (as is VERY common in contemporary music of various kinds).

I have found an easy way to work around the problem here, but Finale's default handling of the situation is simply wrong. If you take a keyless score, and then have it change to having a key, the transposing instruments will take on the key signature of the concert score (which of course they shouldn't), even though the transpositions, note for note, will still be accurate. There is no situation in music where you would ever want this to happen.

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 12/6/2016 4:00 PM (GMT -6)

So just to clarify. If your piece is keyless, then moves to F major, you'd want the Bb clarinet to be keyless, and then move to G major (one sharp). But instead, it moves to F major (Bb) (and then does the transpositions correctly, which includes canceling all of the Bbs with naturals).

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/6/2016 4:07 PM (GMT -6)

What happens if you don't choose Chromatic? Finale has always used the selected key signature when choosing Chromatic. Just change the setting to the normal transposition. Chromatic gives the wrong behavior, so avoid that.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 12/6/2016 3:18:31 PM (GMT-6)

File Attachment :
Keyless and Key Signature Mixed.musx 85KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 317 time(s).

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 12/6/2016 6:42 PM (GMT -6)

Finale's keyless feature isn't really keyless--it's "hide key signature and use accidentals." So you may run into problems entering notes or with enharmonic issues.

What I would do is apply an "Independent key signature" staff style to transposing instruments in the keyless passages. Assuming your main key signature for non-transposing intruments is C, then give the transposing instruments an independent key signature for the keyless passage corresponding to their key--e.g., give clarinets the key of Bb, or horns the key of F. Don't use chromatic transposition. Your keyed passages should be normal.

The only drawback is that if you copy between an independent-key staff and a normal staff it will unwantedly transpose; in this case you need to transpose back.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 12/8/2016 9:59 AM (GMT -6)

I think what you describe is more or less what I do, but in reverse. i.e. my pieces are mostly keyless, with having a key sig being the exception. So I don't want my pieces to be in C (i.e., I definitely don't want my Bb clarinet having a key sig of 2 sharps most of the time). So set it up as keyless (which, as I've stated, no longer works correctly in Finale 25. I have to go in manually toggle each transposing instrument, even after I've selected "keyless" during setup).

I've got it working fine now, and the point of my post was merely to point out that this behavior of Finale - to give transposing instruments the same key sig as non-transposing ones when a piece moves from being keyless to having a key - is a bug. It's totally wrong, and should never happen. There is no circumstance in the world where, when your piece is in the key of F major (concert), you would want your Bb clarinet player to see a key sig of 1 flat (they should see 1 sharp)!

Granted, it's probably not the most common occurrence - to switch from keyless to w/ a key. But it can't be all that rare either!

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 12/8/2016 10:06 AM (GMT -6)

Here is just a little example that demonstrates my point. (note - I DID select "chromatic" for the clarinet - I don't follow Zuill's advice to avoid that. That's the only way I know of to have the instrument NOT show a key sig for the keyless sections.)

Look at what happens when the keyless first section (1 measure) gives way to the key of A major. Be sure to view not in concert pitch!

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X

File Attachment :
twinkle example.musx 87KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 339 time(s).

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 12/8/2016 10:08 AM (GMT -6)

There are two things Finale could do in this instance that would be better:

1) When the music moves to a key, assume that all the instruments then have a key, and give each the appropriate key sig for its transposition (in this case, Cl should have 5 sharps)

2) Be strict and stay keyless, even when the other instruments take on a key sig. In this case, Cl would keep no key sig, and all accidentals would be written in.

Either one of those behaviors would be defensible (with the first being the far more correct). As it currently works, it's not so much of a "bug" as an oversight, I guess. But it's wrong.

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 12/8/2016 12:15 PM (GMT -6)

My apologies for not understanding "keyless", which I don't use. (The problems I was speaking of have to do with key-signatureless instruments like Horn in F in a piece with a key.)

Your suggestion about when "chromatic" has a key signature is a good one, but if you haven't done so, for now use either a staff style, or use Change instrument to switch back and forth between chromatic and not.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/8/2016 11:36:27 AM (GMT-6)

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Image Preview

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File Attachment :
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Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 12/8/2016 12:51 PM (GMT -6)

Yes - the staff style is a very easy solution. And I see the confusion over keyless... an easy fix, but still a weird default behavior!

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/8/2016 3:48 PM (GMT -6)

Okay, then use the normal transposition and check the box to hide the key signature and show all accidentals. If this is still not what you want, I guess I need more info.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 12/8/2016 2:51:04 PM (GMT-6)

File Attachment :
twinkle example revised.musx 85KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 308 time(s).

Shnootre
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2000
Total Posts : 952

Posted 12/13/2016 9:09 PM (GMT -6)

Zuill - I am not sure how I've been unclear. I am just pointing out that Finale's default behavior is just wrong in this situation. It's not that it can't be overcome - it very easily can be - but this should be fixed. This isn't just a matter of preference. If a keyless piece suddenly goes into a key, the only possible appropriate behavior for a transposing instrument would be for it to adopt the corresponding, transposed key signature. Can you tell me where I've got this wrong?

And even if if it didn't do that - the 2nd best option would just be to remain chromatic. There is no reason on earth that a Bb clarinet should adopt the same key signature as all the other instruments (i.e. the untransposed key signature). This is just an oversight - I'm certain, since no one who knows about music would make a program do this.

Daniel Sonenberg
Macbook Pro 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7
OSX 10.9.4
16 gig ram
GPO4 full and JABB3
A bunch of sample libraries
Finale 25
Logic X

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