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copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/2/2012 5:26 PM (GMT -6)

Hi everyone,

I'd like to start by saying I really like the instrument change feature. It has made percussion changes from things like xylophone to snare drum so much easier. However, I've encountered annoying problems and inconsistencies, and I'd like to know if anyone else has, and if they've been able to fix them.

The problem I'm having is that when working with a staff that has been using instrument changes, sometimes it won't let me change the instrument anymore. I've noticed that Finale sometimes likes it more when I don't select all the remaining measures to be changed to the new instrument, instead preferring me to only select the measure range of the new instrument change, and Finale changes back to the previous instrument after that measure range. Like I said, "sometimes". Finale didn't used to care about whether I selected only the measure range or the rest of the measures.

Anyway, my current example of this is that I have a percussionist moving from a xylophone to temple blocks. He wasn't already on the xylophone, it was a change from wood blocks (I don't know if that matters), but Finale won't let me change to temple blocks. What's happening is: I select the measure range of the temple blocks, then go to Utilities > Change Instrument..., then select the new instrument. But nothing happens after I click OK. The staff remains in the current instrument (xylophone), and when looking at the score manager, no new instrument appears after "Xylophone" in the list under the percussionist's instrument changes. This is my current frustration.

Sometimes, I've found that I can reverse this problem by deleting all my instrument changes, and re-applying them. Perhaps somewhere down the line, I forgot not to select all the remaining measures, instead of just the next instrument's measure range. When I re-apply them, I make sure only to use ranges, and then I can continue doing changes, so long as I always remember only to select measure ranges.

Is this clear enough? Has anyone else experienced/solved this problem? Thanks so much for your help!

Finale 2012a, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 7/2/2012 7:07 PM (GMT -6)

It might be good to see the problem file. We might just be guessing otherwise. I have yet to see this behavior. Are all the start measure numbers correct in the Manager? Are there complex measure regions, or anything that might be involved? Was the file built from scratch in 2012? I noticed you are in 2012a. Even though there are issues with 2012b, I wonder if this problem would persist in 2012b.

Zuill

P.S.: Another question: I don't think Finale comes with Temple Blocks (the sounds, not the choice in the menu which assigns Piano). What are you using?

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed)

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 7/2/2012 7:13:53 PM (GMT-5)

Scott Hirsch (Coach)
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 424

Posted 7/4/2012 7:24 PM (GMT -6)

copycat said...
Hi everyone,

I'd like to start by saying I really like the instrument change feature. It has made percussion changes from things like xylophone to snare drum so much easier. However, I've encountered annoying problems and inconsistencies, and I'd like to know if anyone else has, and if they've been able to fix them.

The problem I'm having is that when working with a staff that has been using instrument changes, sometimes it won't let me change the instrument anymore. I've noticed that Finale sometimes likes it more when I don't select all the remaining measures to be changed to the new instrument, instead preferring me to only select the measure range of the new instrument change, and Finale changes back to the previous instrument after that measure range. Like I said, "sometimes". Finale didn't used to care about whether I selected only the measure range or the rest of the measures.

Anyway, my current example of this is that I have a percussionist moving from a xylophone to temple blocks. He wasn't already on the xylophone, it was a change from wood blocks (I don't know if that matters), but Finale won't let me change to temple blocks. What's happening is: I select the measure range of the temple blocks, then go to Utilities > Change Instrument..., then select the new instrument. But nothing happens after I click OK. The staff remains in the current instrument (xylophone), and when looking at the score manager, no new instrument appears after "Xylophone" in the list under the percussionist's instrument changes. This is my current frustration.

Sometimes, I've found that I can reverse this problem by deleting all my instrument changes, and re-applying them. Perhaps somewhere down the line, I forgot not to select all the remaining measures, instead of just the next instrument's measure range. When I re-apply them, I make sure only to use ranges, and then I can continue doing changes, so long as I always remember only to select measure ranges.

Is this clear enough? Has anyone else experienced/solved this problem? Thanks so much for your help!

Are you able to attach a file here so that some of us can take a look? Let me know if you would like any assistance submitting this to MakeMusic Support as well. I would be happy to help! You can contact them directly at makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask.

Scott Hirsch
MakeMusic Forum Assistance
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MacBook 2.16GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 4GB RAM OS X 10.7
Finale 2005-2012
Sibelius 2-6.2
Kontakt 3.5
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.5.2
Zero-G Nostalgia
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These on-line forums are intended for the exchange of ideas among the users of MakeMusic products. If you'd like individual help from our technical support staff, please contact them directly at makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask.

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 10:14 AM (GMT -6)

Zuill said...
It might be good to see the problem file. We might just be guessing otherwise. I have yet to see this behavior.

Well, it isn't something I've only experienced in one file. If you really want to see a file, though, I'll have to ask the person whose music I copy first.

Zuill said...
Are all the start measure numbers correct in the Manager? Are there complex measure regions, or anything that might be involved?

All the start measures are correct. There is only the one default measure in the file; I haven't modified any of that at this point. I have excluded some measures from the numbering system, and there are one or two instrument changes that occur on measures like those, but I don't think that's the source of my problem.

Zuill said...
Was the file built from scratch in 2012? I noticed you are in 2012a. Even though there are issues with 2012b, I wonder if this problem would persist in 2012b.

The file was built entirely in 2012. I actually have the latest version of Finale 2012, although I forgot to update my signature. (By the way, how do you check in the program to see which version I have? I tried Help > about Finale... but it didn't say which letter version I have.)

Zuill said...
P.S.: Another question: I don't think Finale comes with Temple Blocks (the sounds, not the choice in the menu which assigns Piano). What are you using?

There are actually temple block sounds, although not great. Under the percussion layout designer menu, click on the Note Type drop-down menu, and go to World 2 > Temple Blocks, and there are 5 temple blocks. Well, there's at least the illusion of that... I think they all sound the same.

That's one thing I don't like about Finale 2012, is the illusion of huge choice it gives you with the giant list of folk and ethnic instruments. Not that no one should be writing for them, but they're nothing more than a staff name and a vaguely corresponding instrument sound. It makes the instrument list needlessly cluttered with at least 100 options I'll never choose, like the "Arghul", the "Hne", the "Crwth", the "Đàn Tam Thập Lục", and the "Teponaxtli", which is only annoying because they simply translate to "flute", "oboe", "violin", "dulcimer", and "wood block". This is different issue, though.

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 7/6/2012 10:24 AM (GMT -6)

copycat said...
That's one thing I don't like about Finale 2012, is the illusion of huge choice it gives you with the giant list of folk and ethnic instruments. Not that no one should be writing for them, but they're nothing more than a staff name and a vaguely corresponding instrument sound. It makes the instrument list needlessly cluttered with at least 100 options I'll never choose, like the "Arghul", the "Hne", the "Crwth", the "Đàn Tam Thập Lục", and the "Teponaxtli", which is only annoying because they simply translate to "flute", "oboe", "violin", "dulcimer", and "wood block". This is different issue, though.

aren't all of those instruments present in the Garritan World Instruments library, however?

Finale 2010, 2011, 2012b
Win XP
basically ALL Garritan sounds, plus XSample Chamber ensemble.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ~John Rogers

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 10:26 AM (GMT -6)

Are they? I don't see them in the list of Garritan sounds.

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 7/6/2012 10:29 AM (GMT -6)

mmm, the Arghul is the very first instrument listed in the Garritan World Instruments library list of samples.

check here: www.scribd.com/full/42795384?access_key=key-q2d61746mi4b6cuxhll

remember, this is a specific library called "World Instruments". This is not part of the Garritan Instruments for Finale, that comes bundled with Finale, nor part of GPO.

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 10:35 AM (GMT -6)

Hmm, I don't know if I have that library, then. In my Garritan ARIA player, I just have Finale default sounds. Under "010. World", I have listed: Alto Recorder, Balaphon, Ethnic Percussion, Gamelan Ensemble KS, Italian Musette Accordion, Koto, Mandolin, Shakuhachi, Sitar, and Taiko Drums. That's as ethnic as my library seems to get.

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 7/6/2012 10:51 AM (GMT -6)

if you did not specifically BUY that library, then no, you don't have it.

Finale comes with a set of its own reduced sample library, which contains sub-sets of a few different Garritan libraries... most of which is extracted from the much larger full GPO. I think there are a few samples taken from the Jazz & BigBand library, some from the Concert & Marching Band library, and possibly a few excerpts from the World Instruments library.

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 11:00 AM (GMT -6)

Ah, OK then, my bad. It'd be nice if I could remove all those unnecessary instruments from the menu, since I'll never use them. But it's not important, and like I said above, that's a different issue.

My current issue is with instrument changes. Right now, Finale is ignoring my commands when I try to change the instrument. I just tried selecting a couple measures, going to Utilities > Change Instrument..., and selecting a different instrument. It was obvious that Finale didn't do anything, and when I checked the Score Manager, there was no new instrument change listed. Am I the only person who has experienced this?

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 7/6/2012 11:08 AM (GMT -6)

In order to know what sounds come bundled with Finale, you need to look at the lists in the Appendix, and then look at the corresponding Maps. One cannot assume either one is 100% accurate. What I do next is load the sound set I want and manually play each note on my MIDI keyboard, and compare the sounds I am hearing to the lists. This is harder with more exotic instruments, as I am not as familiar with the originals. Next, if the Map does not match the Appendix list and what I hear, I create a new map that matches the 2. This is time intensive. Lastly, I create a percussion Layout that exactly matches the Map I have created. To help myself for future use, I then copy the list from the Appendix to a Word file and modify it to match my Map and Layout.

I have been systematically doing this over the last 2 days. I figure I am about 10% done.

All those lists you see include nmaes in the purchased sets of Garritan and Tapspace, most of which are not available with the sounds bundled in Finale. If a Map or the sounds you hear do not have a matching name in the lists, you simply choose Custom. There are 1-128. Once you choose a Custom number, you can attach a unique name for it for just that Map. Later, when you create a matching Layout for that Map, those unique Custom names are available when choosing the corresponding sounds. If you try to choose a different sound in a layout (even if the name is close), it will not work with the chosen Map. It must be an exact match.

Sound complicated? It is, by design. Would we like the design to be improved? You bet. However, in asking for that, we run the risk of it getting more complicated. My request: MakeMusic at least make all the lists, Maps, and Layouts available that are already coordinated, so we don't have to jump through hoops.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 7/6/2012 11:15 AM (GMT -6)

Are you clicking the Staff name in the Score Manager and looking at the bottom of the list? The changed instrument should be there and the start measure should show in the right colomn. If that column is not there, select that option in Custom View.

Create a custom file and put a change there. Does that stick? If not, then post that blank file here for our examination. If you choose an instrument with a different clef, that will show in the score. Also, the abbreviated staff name will change on successive systems, if you have have chosen the option for the staff to show its name.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 11:57 AM (GMT -6)

I see there is currently another popular thread about that issue, so I'd like to try to keep this one on track.

I'd like to quote myself above in saying that I'm still experiencing the instrument change problem (which, in case I have confused anyone, has nothing to the ethnic instruments I was talking about earlier). You can actually create this problem easily for yourself (which I will reveal later in this post).

In my first post, I mentioned a way I've found to undo this problem, so I've done that. I saved the file as a different name, though, so if it has to be revisited, it can be. First, I deleted all my instrument changes in the percussion part I'm working with, but wrote down what they were so I could re-apply them. Second, I went back through, re-applying them in this fashion: My first instrument change was from wood block to xylophone, so I selected measures 132-139 and changed them to xylophone (which Finale allowed me to do). Looking at the Score Manager, I now have wood blocks at measure 1, xylophone starting at measure 132, and wood blocks again at measure 140. Since I'm only selecting measure ranges, Finale includes the change back to wood blocks, so I never have to apply wood block changes. I continue adding all my instrument changes this way.

I've discovered the root of the problem I'm having by doing this. The point is, you can't change a "changed" instrument. If you start with an instrument, then add a change in measure 5, and another in measure 10, you can't insert a change between measures 6 to 9 later. You have to delete the change at measure 10, and do it again. For whatever reason, Finale doesn't allow you (or me, at least) to change the instrument in a measure range where there is already an instrument change. This is annoying and unbelievably NOT user-friendly, but it creates an additional problem: Sometimes (most often in percussion music) a instrument change will only last one measure. However, in Finale, if you select just one measure for an instrument change, it will change the rest of the measures. This actually isn't just me; it's in the documentation that way. I can't think of a way around that problem either (that isn't hideously annoying).

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 7/6/2012 12:10 PM (GMT -6)

Since I am not getting the same behavior you are, I don't think I can be of any help. However, since you are having problems with this (and maybe there is something about your score that would give me trouble as well), you might want to consider using staff styles for the changes. They re-instituted that feature in the b update. The only problem with using that method is that it doesn't give you the playback sounds without using expressions. I think the new way is better, for that reason.

If you delete all the notes from the file in queston, and even the title, you could post the problem file here without revealing any copyrighted material. If you are getting this behavior on alll files, then that would be a wasted venture.

Zuill

P.S.: The only thing that I can confirm is the selecting just one measure. It does change everything up to the next change. For those situations, I would select 2 measures, then change the second measure back to what it was. That is am easy workaround. But everything else should stay put. It sounds like a manageable situation.

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 7/6/2012 12:40:38 PM (GMT-5)

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 12:23 PM (GMT -6)

From what I can tell, this is not just a problem in my file. If you want to experience the problem I'm experiencing, it's as simple as this:

1. Create a new Finale file.
2. Select "Piccolo" as the only instrument.
3. Go through the rest of the setup wizard, leaving everything as the default. (These settings are irrelevant to my problem.)
4. Once the file is created, select measures 2 and 3. Change the instrument to the flute.
5. Look at the Score Manager, and drill down the piccolo part. You should see a change to flute starting in measure 2, followed by a change to piccolo in measure 4. (If you can't see the starting measure, click "Customize View...", and check "Start Measure".)
6. Close the Score Manager.
7. Select only measure 5, and apply a change to flute.
8. Look at the Score Manager again. You'll see a new change to flute in measure 5. Notice though, there is no change back to piccolo. This is because all the remaining measures are now the flute.
**This is where my problem begins**
9. Select measure 6, and apply a change to piccolo.
10. You may have noticed, nothing happened. Check the Score Manager again. No change to piccolo is listed.

Now you have a problem. If you want to add an instrument change, you can't, because the last change to flute you made was infinite. For example, if you want a change to piccolo now in measure 7, you have to delete that last change to flute you made. Then, you select measures 5 and 6, and apply an instrument change to flute. Now measures 5 and 6 are for the flute, and 7 is back to the piccolo. If this isn't happening to anyone else, then I don't know what to do.

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 7/6/2012 12:33 PM (GMT -6)

I followed your steps precisely and it changed properly to piccolo in measure 6.

Zuill

P.S.: I am using Windows 7. Possibly the OS makes a difference.

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 2:01 PM (GMT -6)

Oh, no... so this is a problem that perhaps only I can experience? If it is indeed the OS, then this problem will be insurmountable for the foreseeable future (until I get a new computer).

So Zuill, I guess what you're saying is measures that have already been changed to a new instrument can be changed again without having the previous instrument change deleted?

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 7/6/2012 2:11 PM (GMT -6)

I followed your steps exactly and got the piccolo again, whereas you didn't. If that is what you mean, then, yes. Wouild you post the file itself, so I can see if that file does the same for me?

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 2:18 PM (GMT -6)

I can't post the actual file I'm working on, but I'll post an example file of all the steps I listed above.

So, just like what I said earlier: In this file, I can't create an instrument change after measure 6.

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

File Attachment :
example.mus 41KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 376 time(s).

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 7/6/2012 2:23 PM (GMT -6)

Revised file posted.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

File Attachment :
example copycat Revised.mus 41KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 370 time(s).

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 2:25 PM (GMT -6)

Right, so you just clicked on measure 6, changed the instrument, and Finale did it, then?

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 7/6/2012 2:27 PM (GMT -6)

Yes.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/6/2012 2:29 PM (GMT -6)

Well, then we have an unresolved fundamental difference. Now what?

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 7/6/2012 2:34 PM (GMT -6)

I tried it in XP compatibility mode, but got the same behavior. I will try it next time I am on my XP machine. I would send a support request to MM and get their take on it. I would be interested to see if a Mac user gets the same result.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

copycat
Яegistered Member

Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 73

Posted 7/12/2012 2:48 PM (GMT -6)

I've been talking to someone at MakeMusic for a little while now, and in doing so discovered there's a much simpler way to explain the problem I'm having.

Basically, it's this: If I change a measure or range of measures to an instrument other than the "default" for that staff (ie. piccolo to flute), Finale won't let me change the instrument for that measure or range of measures again until I delete the change and apply a different instrument change.

But who knows? Maybe Finale just works this way, and my problem isn't actually a glitch. That's not the sense I'm getting from you others, though. I'm getting the idea that everyone else is capable of changing instruments freely, without regard to the previous changes. Either way, I find my problem extremely annoying and cumbersome. Whether it's a glitch or not, the program shouldn't work this way. As a tool for writing music, this is so counteractive that it's hurting, rather than helping. So, I'm hoping it's a glitch.

Finale 2012b, Finale 2007c
Dell Inspiron 1520, Intel® Core™2 Duo (1.66GHz x 2), 1014MB RAM
Windows XP
Also uses LilyPond v2.14.2 and Sibelius 6

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