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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Finale Vs. Sibelius? | Forum Quick Jump
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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long
      
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 4594
| Posted 10/26/2007 7:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tyler said...
Please look at my quote again. Sibelius is owned by Avid, but that doesn't mean the success of the Sibelius notation program is integral to the success of any separate, important product they have. I'm trying to show the distinction there. You could conceivably invest more money in Finale development than Finale itself brings in through Finale sales, because doing so could allow you to more than make up for it through increased SmartMusic revenue.
If Avid's other products were Espresso Machines or Locking Wheel Nuts, I might agree. But they're not ...
Here in the UK, at least, Avid also sells M-Audio keyboards and other MIDI hardware. And they sell Sibelius. And, and here's the rub, they also sell bundles comprising Sibelius and M-Audio keyboards/MIDI hardware. In other words, they have become a one-stop shop which lets a non-musically equipped user get everything they need - software and hardware - to start creating music on their computer.
I would reckon that these bundles could be seen as either helping sell Sibelius (on the back of a successful range of MIDI hardware), or vice versa. It's pure synergy. Just like you claim for SmartMusic and Finale.
Brian
On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long | | Back to Top | |
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David Young : chambermusic
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2000
Total Posts : 2694
| Posted 10/26/2007 2:55 PM (GMT -6) | | You have to think about it for a moment.
If Avid is overtaking the music software/hardware industry by bundling their notation software with hardware (or pro tools, their other software product) then you have to wonder what their competitors will do. I'm not talking about the Sibelius competitor (Finale),.... I'm talking about their competitors for the hardware and other software products, among them MOTU and Apple.
Will we see some means of the joining of forces between Make Music and Apple or Make Music and MOTU?.... or something of this nature.
David Young
David Young
Composer of classical-romantic style chamber and orchestral music.
Finale 2.4 through 2008
Laptop PC, windows XP home, 2.4 ghz, 516 Megs RAM
Desktop PC, windows XP home, Gigastudio 3.03, 2 Gigs RAM, 3 hard drives
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arranging and orchestration! | | Back to Top | |
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Sebastian Huydts
Registered Member
 
Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 178
| Posted 10/27/2007 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Interesting discussion—what I did not read in the above reactions is the following (perhaps implied):
My beef with Finale is its outdated user interface, and MM's steadfast refusal to develop and implement some basic changes that would make the application more user friendly. Whenever Finale implements changes, it is always piecemeal, unfinished, inconsistent, buggy, or a combination of the aforementioned, which makes it an outright shoddy piece of work. I am talking about the lack of user assignable key codes for almost EVERYTHING (WHY the need for a third party product? HOW difficult can this be to program? Sib. has it!); the ability to copy and paste items such as expressions, clefs, key signatures; the many needless (left over?) dialogue boxes, the many "shortcuts" that feature incomplete pull down menus (WHY still not a "show key/time key signature always/never" function, but most others in the measure tool pull down menu? Why a select number of key changes, not ALL of them?), and I could go on and on. It has been all described, all reported, and the official response is silence. NOT with Sibelius, they have a couple of Carlas reading the customer response on their forum, and they consistently respond, offer solutions, and I have seen Sibelius, to which I switched about two years ago now, implement a host of requested improvements, and acknowledge the list of improvements yet to be made.
I write a lot of instructional work (in addition to my "serious music"). Granted I do not need the complexity that Bruno referred to, I do not need Finale's complexity to accomplish simple tasks either. Sibelius takes me less than half the time to put in fingerings, articulations, dynamics, and make the layout presentable. Yes, I am stuck with the look of the brace in Sib., but in the grand schem of things, that is truly minor. The EPS files always work. I teach composition to kids in the ages of 12-18. I need to be able to have them develop their musical skills, not loose my lesson time on instructing them to "adapt" to a unwieldy piece of software.
I do see the importance of (at least) two major competing companies in the development of music notation software. I hope that MM has enough survival instinct to start listening to its customer base, and do some meaningful functionality changes and upgrades. Otherwise, Finale will ultimately become the Rolls Royce of programs—too costly (in time and money)to do what it does for the lay composer.
Sebastian Huydts
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PB G4, 1.25 GHz, 1,256 MB Ram, OS10.3.9, Fin2006d, Sibelius 4.1 | | Back to Top | |
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MattiMattMatt
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 74
| Posted 10/28/2007 3:14 PM (GMT -6) | | There is no equivalent for Speedy Note entry in Sibelius. it is only in Finale. Speedy Note entry means you can fiddle around on your keyboard (without entering notes), and then hold down a note or chord you want and THEN plunk in the rhythmic value on your computer keyboard. When you actually want to input music: play note, play rhythmic value, repeat. This lets you use the keyboard as an independent keyboard, and then input notation - fast - when you want to use it to input notation.
This is BY FAR the most musical way to enter notation since it allows you to both play at the keyboard AND control, easilly, when notes are input into the program. You play the note, register with your ear that it is correct, and engage the software. The alternative, that you first select a rhythmic value and then play a note means that the software is always listening and the keyboard is always "hot." This means the keyboard is exclusively a notation input device and no fiddling allowed (without turning notation off).
As long as Finale is the only program with Speedy Note entry (note first then rhythmic value, not the other way around), there is no useful alternative... for me! | | Back to Top | |
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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 4594
| Posted 10/28/2007 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | chambermusic said...
You have to think about it for a moment.
If Avid is overtaking the music software/hardware industry by bundling their notation software with hardware (or pro tools, their other software product) then you have to wonder what their competitors will do. I'm not talking about the Sibelius competitor (Finale),.... I'm talking about their competitors for the hardware and other software products, among them MOTU and Apple.
Will we see some means of the joining of forces between Make Music and Apple or Make Music and MOTU?.... or something of this nature.
David Young
Maybe a Pro Tools with really good scoring abilities - or a Sibelius with serious DAW, sequencing and video capabilities - would really be the Killer Music App. And with dedicated hardware control surfaces (mixer-style, and/or MIDI keyboards, etc), it would become something of a no-brainer for new users to buy the whole suite, lock-stock-and-barrel, rather than fish around for an eclectic (and expensive) mix of software and hardware from numerous, not entirely compatible manufacturers!
Brian
On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 10/29/2007 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | |
Sebastian Huydts said...
I teach composition to kids in the ages of 12-18. I need to be able to have them develop their musical skills, not loose my lesson time on instructing them to "adapt" to a unwieldy piece of software.
So, it's important for you to teach them composition but not have them burdened by correct notation? Because in Sibelius, most of the time the engraving is too far from engraver quality. It's notational output is truly "good enough" for people for whom "good enough" is "good enough".
Finale 2007c, Garritan Personal Orchestra 2nd ed. Full version
Windows Vista 32-bit, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs
Piccolo, Flute, Alto Flute, Bass Flute
Oboe, English Horn
Eb, Bb, A, Alto, Bass, Contra-alto, Contrabass Clarinet
Basset Horn
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Jetcopy
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2000
Total Posts : 4795
| Posted 10/29/2007 1:11 PM (GMT -6) | | BVDPRESS said...Jetcopy said...
FWIW,
On the Sibelius forum, one of the complaints is that you can't export an XML file without purchasing the Sib. Dolet from Recordare. And why do they want to export in XML format? Because they want to bring their files into SmartMusic.
JT Maybe a dumb question, but can you dump XML into SmartMusic directly? If so, that is quite cool!
I don't think so, you need Finale for that. Here's the post from the Sib. forum that I was referring to:
When I saw the announcement about the 5.1 upgrade and saw that it mentioned MusicXML support I was overjoyed at the thought of being able to export my files to MusicXML to send to a colleague who still uses Finale. Sadly I see my hopes were misplaced. After installing 5.1 I see that there is still no way to export to MusicXML format so in turn there is still no way to get music from Sibelius into Finale.
Am I right about this? Is there a way to move from Sibelius to Finale without having to shell out additional money to pay over a hundred dollars more for the Dolet plug-in?
As an aside, I am sure there are financial reasons that both companies have avoided including this option, but in my opinion Sibelius and MakeMusic both need to take a note from Microsoft and allow their formats to be saved and opened in other notation packages instead of making their users jump through hoops to do convert between the two. I would personally love to stay with Sibelius as I think it is superior to Finale, but as things are I forsee a day in the near future when I will have to move to Finale simply to be able to provide my clients easy access to files they can use with SmartMusic in their classrooms.
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Chad Criswell
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