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Djard
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 518

Posted 12/26/2010 2:47 AM (GMT -6)

No matter what shape I design, how precipituous the slope, or how much the multiplication of the "Level Scale" (from the default 13:4 to 24:1, and even 60:1), I just cannot get "rit." to slow down tempo from 108 BPM to 24 BPM within six beats of 4/4 time. I created a new document, wrote some 1/8th notes and nothing else, and then inserted a rit. I barely notice any slowing of tempo; however, if I set the rit. over a period of 5 or 6 bars then I notice an appreciable slowing of tempo.

Creating a custom shape is not an option because then I get no slowing in tempo at all. I notice that inserting the expression twice makes a dramatic difference in tempo. I can drag the second "rit." precisely over the top of the first, so I won't have two ritardandos at one point. Inserting hidden tempo changes works better. But I would like to make "rit." work, especially to design tempo alterations to suit my needs, without working around the issue. As I become better acquainted with Finale, I see that it's a very powerful program, perhaps moreso than MS-Word. So I figure some default setting is causing the "rit." to slow down only about 15% of the preceding tempo, no matter parameters I set in the edit section. I do hope someone can tell me what default setting is limiting the amount ot tempo change with rit. or accel.

Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146

Posted 12/26/2010 10:14 AM (GMT -6)

We've told you before, how to do this. Start with a tempo of 108 bpm. Place the rit. where you want it. Place a tempo mark of quarter note=24 where you want it. The program will do it correctly.

Please spend some time learning how to use the program, instead of overcomplicating it.

Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

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Djard
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 518

Posted 12/27/2010 3:22 AM (GMT -6)

Dear Mike,

I don't blame you for getting frustrated by my question, which (please don't take offence), you are not answering. I don't believe I'm complicating anything by asking Finale how to make one of its important features work. Suggesting I insert a tempo mark as a way of slowing tempo does not answer the question of how to make "rit." work, as stated in the manual. Moreover, you recommend I spend more time learning how to use the program. Since the steps in the manual for inserting a ritardando fail in version 2011 (try them!), I take it you suggest I just keep experimenting. If that be so, the idea of posting questions at a support forum become meaningless. Again, if the manual were written properly, fewer folks would be posting questions.

If you read my question again, you will see I already mentioned that adding a hidden tempo mark works fine, which is exactly your suggestion. I was able to add several several hidden tempo marks to obtain a non-linear ritardando...quite a labor. What I would like to know--and nobody at Finale has even touched so far--is whether or not the ritardando settings can be used at all; since this feature is included in the software. If the "rit." feature does not work in Finale, please spare me the frustration and let me know--that I can accept. But to ignore my question and say "I'm overcomplicating it" is, I think, unfriendly.

Maybe this question can be passed on to one of the engineers..

In the attached image, I set the "Grid Marks Every" x2 "8th notes."

1) Wouldn't that mean the duration of the rit. is 6 beats in 4/4 time?

2) The slope drops 11 grid line spaces. Wouldn't that mean a slowing of 11 beats/min?

3) In the "Executable Shape Designer Setting, the "Level Scale" is 6:1. Wouldn't that mean that the slowing of 11 BPM be multiplied by 6?

So if my tempo before inserting the rit. is 108 BPM, shouldn't the rit. slow the tempo to 42 BPM at the and of the 6 beats, before "a tempo" [108 minus 6 x 11 (66) = 42].

Shalom

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Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146

Posted 12/27/2010 9:46 AM (GMT -6)

The Finale "engineers" do not officially monitor the forum. Submit your question to them through finalemusic.com/support.aspx

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/27/2010 10:03 AM (GMT -6)

I agree with Mike that you are making this far more complicated than it needs be.
Set a tempo. Create a rit. Set another tempo at the END of the rit to show where the rit should end up.

Bingo. job done.

Djard said...
As I become better acquainted with Finale, I see that it's a very powerful program, perhaps moreso than MS-Word.

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Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/27/2010 1:37 PM (GMT -6)

For those who need help in learning about the Finale feature that the engineers designed into the program, rather than attacking Djard (whose question is legitimate), please read the 2011 manual under Shapes for Playback (I tried but am unable to put the link here).

Zuill

P.S.: This answer si for those who keep saying "Read the Manual." it's amazing how some that say that don't.

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3

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Post Edited (Zuill) : 12/27/2010 12:41:00 PM (GMT-6)

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/27/2010 1:52 PM (GMT -6)

I don't think I was attacking Djard -- just agreeing with Mike that what he wants can be achieved simply.

Yes, you can apply Shapes to Expressions, but that does seem to be excessively complicated for this task.

Djard says Shapes don't seem to work. Verifying whether Shapes do in fact work with Playback may take a bit of testing.
I can't find which particular bit of the manual either of you are referring to. Can you give the page title?

My LOLs were related to the comparison with Word, nothing more. Word is not powerful, but it can do many things. Too many, some would say!

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Flint
silly bear

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151

Posted 12/27/2010 3:09 PM (GMT -6)

Wiggy said...
My LOLs were related to the comparison with Word, nothing more. Word is not powerful, but it can do many things. Too many, some would say!

Word can do a few things well, many things adequately, and many other things poorly. Kind of like Sib, no? Both are geared towards the same type of user.

woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

Mike Rosen
himself

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146

Posted 12/27/2010 3:15 PM (GMT -6)

And I especially wonder about his aim: to go from 108 to 42, over 6 beats, on a non-linear scale. Who is going to conduct it? Who is going to play it? Who is going to know the difference?

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 12/27/2010 3:55 PM (GMT -6)

I have been able to get what I want from the shape designer. Try turning off HP and see what happens.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Djard
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 518

Posted 12/27/2010 8:46 PM (GMT -6)

Zuill, you are a genius! Once I set HP to "None," the parameters in the Executable Shape Designer for rit. work. Thank you sooooo much. I figured there was something impeding the function.

Wiggy, the page title about which you inquire follows:

http://www.finalemusic.com/UserManuals/Finale2011Win/Finale_Left.htm#CSHID=9501|SkinName=main

I didn't take anyone's response as attacking. But I think some folks might do well to appreciate that some of us can feel the difference between a hesitant rit. and one that is purely linear, especially over a period of six beats at Andantino. To me, the labor of shaping a custom rit. is worth the time; since the expression is saved, I won't need to re-create it again when needing that style of rit. in the future. When I recorded for EMI, the conductor was more fastidious than I. You might find it interesting to watch the legendary Segovia in one of his master classes detail so meticulously such expressions on YouTube. I don't want to alienate myself at this forum from anyone, so I hope my explanation is not offensive to anyone.

I'm gratefull to all.

Djard
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 518

Posted 12/28/2010 2:04 AM (GMT -6)

Oops, the link above does not bring up the page from where I copied it. The steps below should get you there.

1. Click on the following URL:

http://www.finalemusic.com/UserManuals/Finale2011Win/Finale_Left.htm#CSHID=9501|SkinName=main

2. Search -> rall -> Executable Shape Designer.

Horizontally, I count the dots that represent the 1/8th notes (duration), but vertically I count the spaces that represent tempo change.

This is a right hemispheric brain challenge to Western thinking, but the procedure becomes quite simple after creating a few shapes. Hey, taking on problems maintains brain density in the pre-frontal cortex, a cheap but free prophylactic against age-related dementia!

macrobert
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 38

Posted 8/11/2011 5:19 AM (GMT -6)

I've had a similar problem in getting the rallentando to work.

In short, it doesn't. In fact, I've Duplicated the default "rit." and simply renamed it to "rit2" and it no longer works.
Yes, I do have Human Playback turned on (that would be HP to some of the more arrogant people here), and set to "Romantic." In this mode, "rit" works, but its duplicate does not.

Using the method of inserting (and then hiding) a target tempo to conclude the rit or rallen does help a bit.

A bigger question, however, has to do with the arrogance of some of the responders in this forum.

If people have a simple and legitimate question (or not) they should be treated with respect. I've been using Finale for about 30 years -- I think I still have the elegant boxes and manuals that it came in. I've always had problems with the Shape Designer and creating executable shapes. I've always thought the method to be overly complicated and archaic. With phone support several years ago, I was able to get one to work.

Why would I go to all the trouble? Well, as one participant said, so I can use it again.

Some of the responders here seem to presumptuously think that many of us don't or haven't read the manual, even when specific examples and explanations are given.
Why? To prove your arrogance or just to try it out on anonymous persons?

For all of the negative responses and idle commentary, it seems to me it would have been just as easy to give a solution.

Oh -- did I misunderstand the purpose of this forum?

BTW--I would still like to find a way to create a functional rallentando marking. I do hear the difference, and I can conduct the difference.

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Saffron
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 4504

Posted 8/11/2011 8:39 AM (GMT -6)

Rits, Ralls and curves have long been a dark art, with so many unpleasant side effects, that in the past couple of years I've abandoned using curves at all, and literally place explicit hidden tempo change expressions by hand throughout the scores I want to use for playback. And finally, I'm getting "performances" with all the correct musical nuances, albeit after a fair bit of work.

Brian

chipzoller
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 413

Posted 8/11/2011 10:39 PM (GMT -6)

I do this using the Tempo Tap functionality and it seems to work quite well. Not sure what others' experiences are like with this tool.

Finale 2011
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Saffron
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 4504

Posted 8/12/2011 3:31 AM (GMT -6)

chipzoller said...
I do this using the Tempo Tap functionality and it seems to work quite well. Not sure what others' experiences are like with this tool.

Tap tempo came in a year after the version of Finale I use - though I have played with it in Finale 2006. The biggest problem with Tap Tempo, is there is no obvious way to edit/regularise/quantise the tempo track, which can therefore result in uneven timing with no apparent way to smooth things out.

Using hidden expressions like "120" (for 120bpm), "080" (for 80bpm), etc., means I can see exactly where my music is speeding up/slowing down, and I can get exactly the right kind of rall/rit/accel or whatever simply by placing a number of these across beats and measures as needed.

A good further feature, is that I can easily copy/paste these sequences of tempo changes to other parts of a piece where I want the same effect, or even between pieces.

All this means that I am in control of my music, rather than relying on the strange mathematical formulae of Finale "curves", or the smoke and mirrors of HP.

Brian

Jetcopy
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2000
Total Posts : 4795

Posted 8/12/2011 7:36 AM (GMT -6)

macrobert said...

In short, it doesn't. In fact, I've Duplicated the default "rit." and simply renamed it to "rit2" and it no longer works.
Yes, I do have Human Playback turned on (that would be HP to some of the more arrogant people here), and set to "Romantic." In this mode, "rit" works, but its duplicate does not.

I would suspect the problem is that you've added a "2" to the word "rit", the new expression "rit2" is not in the HP dictionary, hence HP doesn't react to it as a standard musical text expression.

Macbook Pro OSX 10.6.6, 2.66GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB RAM

Hans Nel
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 129

Posted 8/12/2011 4:52 PM (GMT -6)

What I usually do is that I:

1) Click on the MIDI tool
2) Select the range of notes that must make the rall or rit.
3) Click on 'MIDI Tool' menu
4) Click on 'Edit Tempo'
5) Click on 'MIDI Tool' menu (again!)
6) Click on 'Scale'

Enter 120 in the 'From:' textbox and 42 in the 'To:' textbox
Leave the rest of the settings as they are.
Click OK

Oh, and make sure you 'Incorporate MIDI Data' in your HP Prefs (Playback Settings -> HP Preferences -> MIDI Data (left side) -> 'Incorporate MIDI Data' in all 4 dropdown boxes (right side) -> Save & Close -> OK)

Try again. It works for me.

This only works with measures that does NOT contain a fermata.

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Post Edited (Hans Nel) : 8/12/2011 5:01:47 PM (GMT-5)

Derrek
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 2347

Posted 8/12/2011 5:03 PM (GMT -6)

Thank you. That was helpful for me to learn.

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