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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Finale 2014 is a nightmare. Most disappointing update in a long time | Forum Quick Jump
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Mike Rosen
himself
      
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
| Posted 11/10/2013 10:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | MowingDevil said...
Wow, gotta say I'll hold off on this update for several reasons. I was planning on upgrading over the Christmas break, in the middle of too many projects right now & don't want to deal w/ any updating issues. Now, I may wait even longer unless these bugs are resolved.
I seriously thought, be taking an additional year to provide a new version, that Finale was either going to be a major overhaul or at least be released close-to bug free. With beta testers & the additional time there is no excuse for all these bugs. If it wasn't ready for release they should have waited until it was fixed. Minor bugs are to be expected. Perhaps they rushed it to take advantage of the Sibelius debacle.
I'm very pleased w/ some of the new features Finale now has but there certainly could have been more. For now, I'll continue on with 2012...and Snow Leopard....and Logic Pro 9 etc. If it works it works.
This release doesn't seem to have any more problems than any others have had. And I say that as someone who took a week to get it running. But it wasn't Finale's fault, it was a conflict on my system. And there was no amount of beta testing that would have found it.
Sure there are issues. But I'm sure that the staff of MM is working overtime to fix as many of them, as quickly as they can. And I thnk that everybody on the forum would agree that in the middle of a heavy workload is no time to be upgrading. So wait until you have the time to deal with it, but don't wait for a bug-free relase. It just ain't gonna happen.
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer notation editor (The Gang of Eight) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm
Finale 2010, 2011, 2012c, 2014 on Mac 10.9
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker." | | Back to Top | |
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MowingDevil
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 52
| Posted 11/11/2013 5:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Mike Rosen said...MowingDevil said...
Wow, gotta say I'll hold off on this update for several reasons. I was planning on upgrading over the Christmas break, in the middle of too many projects right now & don't want to deal w/ any updating issues. Now, I may wait even longer unless these bugs are resolved.
I seriously thought, be taking an additional year to provide a new version, that Finale was either going to be a major overhaul or at least be released close-to bug free. With beta testers & the additional time there is no excuse for all these bugs. If it wasn't ready for release they should have waited until it was fixed. Minor bugs are to be expected. Perhaps they rushed it to take advantage of the Sibelius debacle.
I'm very pleased w/ some of the new features Finale now has but there certainly could have been more. For now, I'll continue on with 2012...and Snow Leopard....and Logic Pro 9 etc. If it works it works. This release doesn't seem to have any more problems than any others have had. And I say that as someone who took a week to get it running. But it wasn't Finale's fault, it was a conflict on my system. And there was no amount of beta testing that would have found it. Sure there are issues. But I'm sure that the staff of MM is working overtime to fix as many of them, as quickly as they can. And I thnk that everybody on the forum would agree that in the middle of a heavy workload is no time to be upgrading. So wait until you have the time to deal with it, but don't wait for a bug-free relase. It just ain't gonna happen.
I'm aware of that.....however, they took 2 years to release this. You'd think there'd be less bugs than the annual releases because of that.
I've had Finale 2000, 2008 and 2012 so I'm well aware of the bugs and subsequent fixes. One company that tends to get it right out of the box is Blizzard Entertainment. I think they test their software to a fault and take way too long to release games. However, when they do release it the bugs are a minimum. I'm sure by December MM will have some of the bugs worked out and be on Finale b by then. | | Back to Top | |
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods
Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628
| Posted 11/11/2013 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | MowingDevil said...
I seriously thought, be taking an additional year to provide a new version, that Finale was either going to be a major overhaul or at least be released close-to bug free. .
Finale 2014 DOES represent a major overhaul. Much of the Mac code has been entirely rewritten in Cocoa, rather than using ancient Carbon APIs from the turn of the century, which are already deprecated in OS X and likely to be discontinued in a future version of OS X. There is also a completely new audio engine.
MowingDevil said...
With beta testers & the additional time there is no excuse for all these bugs. One company that tends to get it right out of the box is Blizzard Entertainment. I think they test their software to a fault and take way too long to release games. However, when they do release it the bugs are a minimum.
MM is a VERY small company. The professional music notation market is TINY when compared to a Gaming company. Blizzard has several thousand employees and its profits and revenue are measured in billions. MM has fewer than 100 staff and its turnover is measured in millions. Its profits are slight.
The company is very aware of the bugs that need fixing: it's just a matter of time and money.
MowingDevil said...
If it wasn't ready for release they should have waited until it was fixed.
Lubarsky's Law of Cybernetic Entomology: There's always one more bug.
There are long-standing, unfixed bugs in pretty much every piece of software. Illustrator has some nasty ones that haven't been addressed for years. OS X 10.9 has just come out, with several issues -- some of them disastrous. Every company has to weigh up the cost in time and money lost to fix the bugs against releasing the new version as it is. If you waited for all the bugs to be fixed, you would never release it.
"This is me helping."
Finale 2014, 2.6Ghz 2012 MacMini 16Gb RAM (10.9); 2009 MacBook
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.ukPost Edited (Wiggy) : 11/11/2013 4:47:00 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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Writer of Music
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848
| Posted 11/11/2013 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Michael Mortilla said...
All work and no play. No sense of dealing with actual humans or that reading into the humor and o/t comments might provide some insight. No reading innuendo. No idea of subtext. No camaraderie or sense of a larger community with different perspectives than themselves. In short: not a clue.
What a dull existence to even contemplate. It always the very same set of members who, coincidentally, seem to be the ones with the one-off problems unique to their systems or "rare and unique" problems needing to be solved. It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.
Yes, the blocking feature is very helpful, indeed.
Have we met?
If you can insult me publicly, you can also publicly offer your apologies. I'm waiting.
Apparently man enough to offend, but half a man to offer apologies. Speaking of human interaction.
Finale 2014, but switched back to 2012c
Mac OS X 10.9, 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3
[quote]… as the critic said to the composer: "It's not just your brownnose, your music really stinks".Post Edited (Writer of Music) : 11/14/2013 3:52:11 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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BvdPress
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 1006
| Posted 11/11/2013 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Wiggy said...MowingDevil said...
I seriously thought, be taking an additional year to provide a new version, that Finale was either going to be a major overhaul or at least be released close-to bug free. . Finale 2014 DOES represent a major overhaul. Much of the Mac code has been entirely rewritten in Cocoa, rather than using ancient Carbon APIs from the turn of the century, which are already deprecated in OS X and likely to be discontinued in a future version of OS X. There is also a completely new audio engine. MowingDevil said...
With beta testers & the additional time there is no excuse for all these bugs. One company that tends to get it right out of the box is Blizzard Entertainment. I think they test their software to a fault and take way too long to release games. However, when they do release it the bugs are a minimum. MM is a VERY small company. The professional music notation market is TINY when compared to a Gaming company. Blizzard has several thousand employees and its profits and revenue are measured in billions. MM has fewer than 100 staff and its turnover is measured in millions. Its profits are slight. The company is very aware of the bugs that need fixing: it's just a matter of time and money. MowingDevil said...
If it wasn't ready for release they should have waited until it was fixed. Lubarsky's Law of Cybernetic Entomology: There's always one more bug. There are long-standing, unfixed bugs in pretty much every piece of software. Illustrator has some nasty ones that haven't been addressed for years. OS X 10.9 has just come out, with several issues -- some of them disastrous. Every company has to weigh up the cost in time and money lost to fix the bugs against releasing the new version as it is. If you waited for all the bugs to be fixed, you would never release it.
But Wiggy, all of those are excuses and nothing more. A lot of us are just "1" on this forum and seem to produce music under very tight schedules without issues.
When the guy on the podium puts the stick in the air and gives a downbeat, they expect the group in front to make noise. If I didn't do my job, there would be no noise. There are also no excuses. MM has a lot of excuses all the time and many of us loyal users make excuses for them as well.
I still like the program, use it all day every day and defend it a great deal away from this Forum (here I generally gripe and hope MM listens), but I have no clue what MM has been doing for 2 years.
Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express and Cimarron Music
Oystein Baadsvik US tour coordinator - http://www.baadsvik.com/
bvdpress@snet.net or bryan@cimarronmusic.com
http://www.bvdpress.com
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/ | | Back to Top | |
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods
Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628
| Posted 11/11/2013 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | I was countering the notion that Finale 2014 is not a major overhaul. I was also countering the comparison to a massively larger company. Those are facts, not excuses.
Is Finale 2014 perfect? No. Are there a significant number of bugs, inconsistencies and other issues? Yes. But to suggest that MM have been cooling their heels for 2 years shows a massive lack of understanding of the engineering tasks involved and the practicalities and pragmatic considerations that any company must make.
Finale has made a number of fundamental changes to the entire body of the program -- things like Unicode in 2012; Cocoa in 2014 -- that are dragging the program into the 21st century. It may not be glamorous, but it's entirely necessary.
Finale 2014 is hugely more responsive in scrolling and general object manipulation than previous versions on OS X. For me, that's almost enough to warrant it.
We seem to have these discussions every year. When 2012 came out, everyone said "Is that it?". Now, everyone's saying "2012 is good enough for me!".
BvdPress said...
When the guy on the podium puts the stick in the air and gives a downbeat, they expect the group in front to make noise. If I didn't do my job, there would be no noise. There are also no excuses.
And you've never gone on stage under-rehearsed, or made mistakes in a performance?
I'll happily sit with you and compile a list of things that need fixing in 2014. But I will not presume to suggest that MM has been slumming it.
"This is me helping."
Finale 2014, 2.6Ghz 2012 MacMini 16Gb RAM (10.9); 2009 MacBook
Edirol FA-66; M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha PSR-410, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.ukPost Edited (Wiggy) : 11/11/2013 9:45:04 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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BvdPress
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 1006
| Posted 11/11/2013 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Wiggy: If I practiced for 2 years, I am fairly sure I wouldn't miss the first note or as many notes as MM misses with each initial release. Maybe under the hood 2014 is a major overhaul, but I just see them as "slumming it" again from the outside looking in. Just my perspective. You know much about programming than I so I would defer to you in regards to fundamental changes.
Jari: I have put up several pages here and there and there are always niggles. The point is, when you go into the studio or have to produce a score for live TV you don't get a second chance. Many times you don't get much time to produce the scores either. Why can't MM take that approach? They take the approach: throw it on the wall and hope it sticks. I guess it works for them, but for some of us we could never do this and be hired again.
A story: A while back I did an opera and forgot to add one cue to a viola part. There were thousands of pages. Guess what I heard about? Yep it was that one cue because apparently they couldn't count. That is the pressure I live under, but maybe I am abnormal. I have expectations heaped on me and expect my program of choice to also live up to expectations. It just isn't happening again.
And Wiggy is 100% correct we have these discussions every year (or maybe every two years now). Nothing changes. A release followed by complaints followed by an update followed by complaints, etc. until we are happy with what we have and then followed by "When is X version going to be ready?" or ||: Finale release :||
Please don't get me wrong despite the complaints, Finale is the best program out there. It is a simple choice to use it everyday.
Wiggy: If you are compiling bugs, in "Speedy Entry" we need to press "l" twice now to flip stems up or down instead of once. Another minor annoyance, but when you work fast and expect a certain behavior that is no longer occurring it drives me nuts.
Time to get back to work...
Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express and Cimarron Music
Oystein Baadsvik US tour coordinator - http://www.baadsvik.com/
bvdpress@snet.net or bryan@cimarronmusic.com
http://www.bvdpress.com
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/ | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 11/11/2013 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | |
Wiggy said...
I was countering the notion that Finale 2014 is not a major overhaul. I was also countering the comparison to a massively larger company. Those are facts, not excuses.
We seem to have these discussions every year. When 2012 came out, everyone said "Is that it?". Now, everyone's saying "2012 is good enough for me!". People who think that "nothing of consequence" was done are the same ones who thought that the Y2K problem was much ado about nothing. They are unaware of how much work actually went into solving the problem, how much time was spent making sure it worked, and how many MILLIONS of people worked on it.
The COMPLETE REWRITE OF THE MAC CODE FOR FINALE to Cocoa from an ancient deprecated programming language is apparently no big whoop. *iRoll*
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 8 64-bit, 12GB RAMUNABLE TO DOWNLOAD Finale 2014 DUE TO LACK OF CAT PICTURES.If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read | | Back to Top | |
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Writer of Music
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 848
| Posted 11/11/2013 12:41 PM (GMT -6) | | In the same line of thought, it doesn't always work to compare the appreciation of how well or less than well a piece of software is working for some and for others. What may be no more than a minor inconvenience for one is a huge annoyance for the other. Some users, I as well, have concluded that Finale 2014 for them is useless at this point. I very well understand the (our) grievance and why the grievance may not always be worded to everyone's satisfaction. The very last thing we want to hear, though, is to have our problems ignored, belittled or even ridiculed by other users, some not even having tried 2014 for themselves.
Finale 2014, but switched back to 2012c
Mac OS X 10.9, 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3Post Edited (Writer of Music) : 11/11/2013 11:46:34 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | |
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Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 11/11/2013 3:34 PM (GMT -6) | | WoM said...
The very last thing we want to hear, though, is to have our problems ignored, belittled or even ridiculed by other users, some not even having tried 2014 for themselves.
And the very last thing we (users who are happy with Finale and have an inkling of how much work has gone into it) want to hear is what a bug-ridden, worthless, disappointing nightmare Finale 2014 is.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 2014, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.9
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB
Kontakt 4.2
Amsterdam | | Back to Top | |
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Flint
silly bear
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
| Posted 11/11/2013 3:48 PM (GMT -6) | |
BvdPress said...
I have not ventured over there yet (a little scared), but is it the size or just not working properly? On the MAC side, they seem to be working fine for me. They just are no longer able to be changed was is a bummer. You can arrange the icons in the toolbars any way you like, but cannot remove icons at this time (fine by me for now, just put the useless tools - lyrics, chords, hyperscribe, Simple - on the far end and ignore 'em... when the inevitable maintenance update restores the functionality I can excise them for good). The size of the toolbars is perfectly acceptable for me (at 1900x1240 res on a 24" monitor), and the only complaint I might voice is that the image for each icon could be slightly bigger within the button itself, just for clarity.
The interface is absolutely lightning fast; no delays in switching/dropping/entering/using tools. Can't wait to try it out on a large (50+ stave, 1000+ measure) score. I didn't even have to go through the bother of the usual Garritan library setup, they were detected without work on my part, and seem to play back in excellent form as well.
The only thing I'm not looking forward to is setting up my default Document Style (with my usual full set of expression libraries and custom lines)... but it's worth it to leave all the legacy bits in the dust for good.
I'll now return you to "Who Moved My Cheese?", the Forum.
woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 8 64-bit, 12GB RAMUNABLE TO DOWNLOAD Finale 2014 DUE TO LACK OF CAT PICTURES.If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read | | Back to Top | |
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MowingDevil
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 52
| Posted 11/11/2013 11:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Wiggy said...
I was countering the notion that Finale 2014 is not a major overhaul. I was also countering the comparison to a massively larger company. Those are facts, not excuses.
Is Finale 2014 perfect? No. Are there a significant number of bugs, inconsistencies and other issues? Yes. But to suggest that MM have been cooling their heels for 2 years shows a massive lack of understanding of the engineering tasks involved and the practicalities and pragmatic considerations that any company must make.
Finale has made a number of fundamental changes to the entire body of the program -- things like Unicode in 2012; Cocoa in 2014 -- that are dragging the program into the 21st century. It may not be glamorous, but it's entirely necessary.
Finale 2014 is hugely more responsive in scrolling and general object manipulation than previous versions on OS X. For me, that's almost enough to warrant it.
We seem to have these discussions every year. When 2012 came out, everyone said "Is that it?". Now, everyone's saying "2012 is good enough for me!".
Your counter was not strong. Yes Blizzard is a much larger company but they also produce much larger products. The comparison is valid, its not about the size its about the delivery of product. Its MM's prerogative to release a product before its ready to collect the earnings and then fix the problems if they chose. All I was saying is perhaps a little more beta testing and a later launch date could have been in order considering this is a tool a lot of use in our profession. I just see Blizzard as a company that does things right in terms of releasing a solid product, however I did note they may go too far w/ this approach. There are loads of companies that big that don't take enough time prior to releases so I fail to see how the size of a company matters. Its about the mindset, large or small.
I wasn't saying the release had to be perfect w/o bugs as has been implied. I also never said there weren't important changes made. I said, since it took over 2 years I would have expected EITHER mind blowing changes or a release w/o serious issues.
I'm certainly excited about some of the changes they've made such as how they handle rests in layers and scores w/o key sigs + accidentals. Bravo to that. I'll wait until I have an opportunity to upgrade and hopefully some of the known issues can be corrected by then. | | Back to Top | |
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MowingDevil
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 52
| Posted 11/12/2013 3:24 AM (GMT -6) | | saxop said...MowingDevil said...
Your counter was not strong. Yes Blizzard is a much larger company but they also produce much larger products. I disagree with that. In terms of complexity, the logic in a program like Finale is more difficult to write than many of Blizzard's top games. It's much more open-ended. Finale also has been in ongoing development, whereas games are started and finished over a much shorter period of time. Games also lend themselves easily to modular code that can be easily tested, proven and re-used without need of modification or retesting down the line (a path finding or flocking algorithm, for example). You obviously do this with notation software as well, but there tend to be more changes that disrupt existing pieces and force some measure of rework.
Seriously? How many years has Finale been in existence? Its not like the idea of notation has changed all that much in that time either. AND, where it has changed & evolved Finale has ignored it for the most part. I'm thinking in terms of graphic notation, stopwatch scores etc. Finale begins & ends w/ school band charts, piano music, symphonic scores, pop music, chamber etc. They've added guitar tab but haven't exactly catered to new music composers to say the least and thats where the boundaries of notation have been pushed the most. So considering all this, Finale just has to make the process more logical and improve the work flow in the next version. In other words, its not like they're reinventing the wheel each time they release a new version. They've got a foundation that is there, all they have to do is improve upon it. This year is the exception because of all their foundational changes....but thats why they took an additional year.
NoteAbility Pro is the only notation software out there that is focused on the new music composer and can pretty much do anything including (soon) Chinese prescriptive notation. Its continually evolving and being updated. I dabble in it but still prefer Finale for most of my work primarily because I learned on it and know it the best. I'm enthused w/ some of the new features in 2014 but they really need a new music composer on their development team. | | Back to Top | |
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