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OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 11/19/2016 4:58 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks.

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

jange
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 53

Posted 11/18/2016 5:48 PM (GMT -6)

OCTO, you can see the plugin as a collection of more than 200 of your scripts (one for each accidental of each supported font) with slightly more options.

For example if you are working with Maestro font, you don't even have access to a unified quarter-tone and standard accidental font.
So the first thing you usually need is to select a new key sig/accidental font and re-setup all document options for the new font.
That is about 20 settings you need to edit in Finale's document options. And usually it takes some time to find out the best settings.
The plugin updates the settings for the new font so that it will best match the accidental/key sig settings of the current document (i.e. without changing the spacing more than necessary).

The accidental plugin also takes into account:
- horizontal offset: i.e. the quarter-tone accidental might need to move slightly to the left if it is a note with ledger lines in order not to collide and it should also have exactly the same position as the standard accidental which also might require an extra offset if the glyph boundaries are not identical (2 extra horizontal offsets are included per accidental/font)
- vertical offsets: some fonts even need a slight vertical correction to match standard and quarter-tone accidental (1 extra offset is included)
- an extra horizontal offset can also be added to the standard accidentals on stafflines/ledger lines
- note size: some fonts need different sizes for standard and quarter-tone accidentals, so the font sizes are included for each accidental (required e.g. for Maestro)
- playback capability
- the plugin includes 15 free fonts with microtonal accidentals
- the plugin can also convert an existing standard and/or quarter-tone score to a new accidental font or quarter-tone style without the need of any extra articulations or expressions:
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqTwIBGmRx4

Quarter-tone accidentals in chords can also be handled automatically. No special options are needed for that in the dialog.
You only need to makes sure that if you have standard accidentals AND quarter-tone accidentals or flattened AND sharpened accidentals of the same kind in one chord you need to use different voices (for articulations/expressions) or layers (for expressions only).
Here is an example of a chord with 4 notes and 4 accidentals:
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeCyF0lHl_k
I must admit due to the accidental stacking, the articulations don't look very clear before applying the plugin - though it's possible to decipher them.
If you want it more clear, you can also do it a bit similar to your script and run the plugin on each note of the chord individually:
i.e. write first note of the chord with accidental/articulation or expression, run plugin, add second note with accidental/art/exp, run plugin, etc.

But reminding me of chords and quarter-tone accidentals was a good idea: maybe I should simplify the use by adding an extra option which merges chords with 3 or more notes on different layers/voices to layer 1/voice 1 after the accidental transformation.
Another idea that comes to mind is that the plugin could automatically extract Finale scripts from its font database for the selected accidental font settings - similar to yours but also including font size, horizontal and vertical offset.
So if a user needed a Finale script for an individual accidental, it would be also available.

Jan
elbsound.studio

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 11/18/2016 2:24 AM (GMT -6)

jange said...
OCTO, you apply the plugin to a selected area. This can be done note-wise, measure-wise or on the full document.
If you put the plugin also on keyboard short cut, then you only need to call the short cut and enter return.
The plugin will always use the last settings. So even if you call it measure-wise it's just two keyboard hits.

If you select an articulation/expression that mimics the quarter-tone style, you don't even notice that it's not a real accidental.
For example something like this (the first one is unlinked from the part):

In that case you can apply it at the very end as they are not really distracting.

Here is another demo of entering three measures with quarter-tone accidentals using expressions assigned to metatools.
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEaBfQCVg4c
In this demo the expressions are not deleted afterwards, but only hidden, so that they still do playback.
AFAIK it's not possible to handle quarter-tone playback directly through articulations and HP.
The only ways I know are through expressions or by manipulating the MIDI.
The disadvantage of expressions is that they need a "Set to 0" on the next non-modified note.
The disadvantage of MIDI manipulation in Finale is that it is more difficult to delete.

Jan

A question, how do you apply that plugin for one note inside of a chord? I don't see that option.
Still I believe the script is better option. I was using quarter-tones in my music since 1998, so I have a great fight-experience with them in Finale.

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 11/18/2016 1:29:48 AM (GMT-6)

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 11/18/2016 1:46 AM (GMT -6)

Re whole note tremolos, the reason the vanilla tremolos don't work on whole notes is that "stem side" for a whole note at a given staff position is just the opposite of what it would be if the note had a stem! You can change Position to "Auto Note/Stem Side" and that seems to fix it, but horizontally it's way off on whole notes so you need a whole-note-only version anyway.

Here is what I use, which seems to give more reasonable defaults. I only have a whole-note version of the triple slash.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

jange
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 53

Posted 11/17/2016 4:59 PM (GMT -6)

OCTO, you apply the plugin to a selected area. This can be done note-wise, measure-wise or on the full document.
If you put the plugin also on keyboard short cut, then you only need to call the short cut and enter return.
The plugin will always use the last settings. So even if you call it measure-wise it's just two keyboard hits.

If you select an articulation/expression that mimics the quarter-tone style, you don't even notice that it's not a real accidental.
For example something like this (the first one is unlinked from the part):

Mike Halloran
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2009
Total Posts : 105

Posted 11/17/2016 4:21 PM (GMT -6)

Bret Boulon said...
I will no more upgrade until a few of these requests are addressed by MM

Well... then don't upgrade till those issues are addressed. Makes sense to me.

Mike Halloran

Finale 25.1 & 2014.5, SmartScore X Pro II, Encore 5.0.7
2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad w/ OWC eSATA mod, 20G RAM, OS 10.12.1, 2T SSD
DP 9.1, 8.07, 7.24, Logic Pro X 10.2.4, DSP-Quattro, PSP, IK, NI, Eventide, Izotope & Antares plugins
G4 running OS 10.4.11 & 9.2 with legacy apps

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 11/17/2016 1:36 PM (GMT -6)

jange said...
That's more or less what the plugin above does.
It creates a custom accidental (i.e. what Tools->Accidental Mover does).
But it's faster than your script as you can use metatools to assign the articulations with one click per note and more flexible with the font style selection.
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPIfR3vorhc

Jan

It is a great plugin, but I don't see how it works faster than my script with the shortcut?
In your case you have to enter first note with an accidental, than move to expression tool to add these arrows, than to apply plugin.
While it works on the whole document, and my script on a measure level, I am not sure I would have the whole score full of arrows before applying your plugin. I would do on a measure basis, and that is the point.

In my case I enter a pitch, than with the accidental mover I select one or more accidentals and hit the shortcut.
Not saying that I have assigned the shortcut to the Accidental mover, so it takes 4 seconds to accomplish that.
I use EngraverSuper (modified Engraver for that purpose, NOT Petrucci symbols), so if you know how, than you will edit this in order to get it work for you:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no" ?>
<script name="QT_B-down">
    <shortcut command="" enable="0" in-menu="1" />
    <lines>
        <line content="Enter" />
        <line content='Uncheck "Use Default Accidental Font"' />
        <line content='Click "Set Font…"' />
        <line content='choose item from list "Engraversuper"' />
        <line content="Enter" />
        <line content='Uncheck "Use Default Character"' />
        <line content='Type "G" near to "Select…"' />
        <line content="Enter" />
    </lines>
</script>

EDIT:
BTW; does your plugin incorporate pitch bending within the Articulation? If it does, than hats down!

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 11/17/2016 12:39:57 PM (GMT-6)

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 11/17/2016 11:27 AM (GMT -6)

Shnootre said...
And so many of these problems have existed forever (tremolos on whole notes anyone?).

Are you talking about the fact that the hash marks on whole notes are not placed properly? If so, this is easily solved. Duplicate the existing articulation to make a new one just for whole notes with these settings (EVPUs):

Apply with a metatool.

Of course, JW Yaddeh-Yaddeh is a big help to, if and when it runs on F25.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 11/17/2016 11:23 AM (GMT -6)

Bret Boulon said...
Incorporation of expressions in spacing calculation.
It is really incredible that something like this is the way it is in 2016.
And Let me remind you that this use to be fine ! Expressions were taken out of spacing calculation in Finale 2009 leading to the current spacing issue.

You mentioned this before. Can you give an example? I fired up Finale 2005 and looked at the spacing options. One of the choices was "avoid collision of note expressions" but when I looked up "note expression" in the manual it said "see articulations." I'm not challenging you, but would like to understand where you're using expressions that need to be taken into account by music spacing.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

jange
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 53

Posted 11/17/2016 7:24 AM (GMT -6)

That's more or less what the plugin above does.
It creates a custom accidental (i.e. what Tools->Accidental Mover does).
But it's faster than your script as you can use metatools to assign the articulations with one click per note and more flexible with the font style selection.
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPIfR3vorhc

Jan

Post Edited (jange) : 11/17/2016 6:34:36 AM (GMT-6)

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 11/17/2016 7:12 AM (GMT -6)

I have used the custom key signature, but recently moved to "change accidental". Here is the script:
http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=12&m=487886
And you can create for each accidental its own key shortcut.

Of course, the quartertones SHOULD be implemented in Finale by default.

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

jange
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 53

Posted 11/17/2016 6:45 AM (GMT -6)

For quarter tones there are at least three solutions:
1.) If you only require #, 4#, natural, 4b and b you can replace the existing five accidentals accordingly.
Then you will have quarter tone accidentals in speedy entry.
The main problem remains: the quarter tone accidentals are not transposed correctly.
See this template: finale-logiciel-aide-gravure-musicale.eu/modo/Haldom/fichiers.mus/quart_ton.mus

2.) Another way is to use articulations or expressions over the accidentals that will be transformed to custom accidentals later (i.e. what the Tools->Accidental Mover would do).
This is the approach that I took in this "Accidental plugin" which supports 4 different quartertone styles and 25 fonts.
Again the main problem remains: the quarter tone accidentals are not transposable.
So you must at least run another plugin to update the transposing instruments before printing.
Supported styles:

How to enter (any articulation/expression can be used): /www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7kq-32u_S0
More: /elbsound.studio/quarter_tone_accidentals.php
(Will also be available when JW Lua gets more updates)

3.) Setting up a custom quarter tone scale in Finale ... the way that Finale suggests by default.
With the disadvantage that you need to double the transposition values of transposing instruments.

Jan
elbsound.studio

Post Edited (jange) : 11/17/2016 6:21:19 AM (GMT-6)

Bret Boulon
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 106

Posted 11/17/2016 6:00 AM (GMT -6)

I wish they understood that the competition is really not in their favor now.
My published (very big house...) has to publish tons of scores every year and I know they asked all engravers to move to Sibelius.
I had to export latest work to xml (with all the loss it represents with graphics) because the engraver that was taking care of parts and house rules for the score was on Sibelius.

And gradually the same at Boosey's..
If Finale is not anymore considered the top engraving solution in the professional world, that should somehow ring a bell !
If not, well, then it's going to be a long and sad agony...

Bret

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 11/17/2016 5:50 AM (GMT -6)

OCTO. said...
Almost all these requests I have sent them more than 5ya.

In the last 6 years, MakeMusic has seen (at least?) 4 CEOs, 2 changes of ownership and 1 relocation to another state. Since the new team in Boulder has been in place, with a new leadership and new resources, they have achieved a huge amount in updating Finale's 25-year-old codebase and fixing considerable bugs.

Saying "I told the company about this 5 years ago, so I'm not going to tell them again" does you no good. Of course those bugs that are most frequently reported --or even 'voted for' on the other forum-- are going to get put to the top of the queue.

Members of this forum used to compile a list of the most egregious issues with Finale, and submit it regularly in the development cycle. It may well be time to restart that.

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 11/17/2016 5:05 AM (GMT -6)

Almost all these requests I have sent them more than 5ya.

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Bret Boulon
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 106

Posted 11/17/2016 2:58 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks Jan

That's the thing. It's always possible in Finale but when you are in a rush, all the workarounds are a plague.
hoping that things won't move then when you change something else...
It looks like your plugin will save our lives. Can't wait..

Since I'm here, I just added another important request to my original post :
Quarter tones support both in speedy and simple entry with transposition capabilities

Bret

Post Edited (Bret Boulon) : 11/17/2016 2:16:42 AM (GMT-6)

jange
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 53

Posted 11/16/2016 4:49 PM (GMT -6)

Exponential crescendos can be created in Finale as a combination of a hairpin and an expression.
Some fonts include the "exponential opening" of the hairpin (for example Opus Special).
By using a plugin for automatically connecting hairpin and expression it can get very easy to use - even in Finale.
It's more or less the same as a niente hairpin like in this plugin demo - only connected to the other side:
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNYfVVNnYgw

But of course, it would be more helpful if MM added such a smartshape.

Jan
elbsound.studio

Post Edited (jange) : 11/16/2016 4:20:59 PM (GMT-6)

Bret Boulon
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 106

Posted 11/16/2016 3:43 PM (GMT -6)

Exponential crescendos are very much in use in new music since 20 years.
All the engravers working for my publisher had to switch to Sibelius in order to be able to do these since that are present in so many scores now.
I asked MM for this about 20 times over the years.
How hard can that be to add a smart shape like this ??
Really..

David Ward
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2834

Posted 11/16/2016 2:30 PM (GMT -6)

N. Grossingink said...

Vaughan said...
Just curious, what's the difference between pp<ff and pp-'exponential crescendo'-ff?

In pp<ff, the volume increases evenly from the beginning to the end. The exponential variety increases slowly and "flares" near the end. Trombone players are probably fond of that effect.

I sometimes write this effect with first poco and then più above the hairpin - if there's space; but then often there isn't, so as long as players can be expected to understand the exponential hairpin illustrated in this thread, it might indeed be a useful addition to the Finale armoury.

David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2014d & 2014.5 with Mac 10.9.5 & 10.11.6
Finale 2010b with Mac 10.6.8
full TGTools

Since 2001 have used F 2001, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014

“We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 11/16/2016 2:00 PM (GMT -6)

Vaughan said...
Just curious, what's the difference between pp<ff and pp-'exponential crescendo'-ff?

In pp<ff, the volume increases evenly from the beginning to the end. The exponential variety increases slowly and "flares" near the end. Trombone players are probably fond of that effect.

N.

OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 11/16/2016 1:44 PM (GMT -6)

Just curious, what's the difference between pp<ff and pp-'exponential crescendo'-ff?

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 11/16/2016 1:44 PM (GMT -6)

I agree, completely with you. I feel your frustration. Finale can be better, yes.

MM has opened this FORUM (1) so that users can help each other. It is on .makemusic.com domain but they don't monitor.

If you don't get help or improvements here, you might try via their SUPPORT (2). I tried several times, and I was not particularly satisfied. Also, the help that is not visible to all users, is a 1/2 help.
Than we have a BLOG (3), but you cannot comment to suggest.
Than, they opened a FACEBOOK account (4), for quick help.
Than they opened another help forum at ZENDESK (5).

Maybe you can send your message to the all 5 (4) instances.

(extra emoticons added, to confirm the feelings)

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 11/16/2016 12:47:34 PM (GMT-6)

Bret Boulon
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 106

Posted 11/16/2016 12:59 PM (GMT -6)

Micher R. E. said...
You know it's not much use telling us here on this forum.

Well, if people care here, and agree to some of the proposals, they will "hear" since they read this forum...
The other method seems to me a complete waste of time (reading the kind of answers i get when I try this way..)

Bret Boulon
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 106

Posted 11/16/2016 12:56 PM (GMT -6)

I meant shape designer of course..
I rush when I get furious.

Here an example of exponential crescendo.
And the shape designer window. The same since Finale 1.0 when I bought mine along with a mac plus...

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Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 11/16/2016 11:20 AM (GMT -6)

Bret Boulon said...
… exponential smart shapes for cresc/decr …

Layout or playback ??
I am not sure what you mean by your word “exponential” ??
Please explain.

Bret Boulon said...
… UI revamp !
modern non modal windows for options etc
no more "mac plus era" size of old windows like ‘"smart shape" designer, etc …

I have looked carefully in the Smart Shape Tool, but I can not find any Smart Shape Designer.

Dp you perhaps mean the Smart Line Designer?
- or perhaps the Smart Shape Options?

Peter

Mac Finale, 2012c, 2014d & 2014.5, Dolet 6.6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.11.6, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

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