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The Realms of Gold
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Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 146
 
   Posted 9/13/2011 11:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi all,

I'm a power user. Finale is quite a playground, and I've spent four years finessing my default file with everything from a custom-designed piano brace to hundreds of custom expressions, articulations, MIDI instruments, percussion maps, and scripts. I love that I can move individual dots, replace any stem with any shape, replace any notehead with any character. I use almost every tool in the Special Tools palette, and love it.

For a long time I've been thrilled that Finale lets me do all of this, and have continued to upgrade on the assumption that Sibelius doesn't offer this level of control.

After many years of discussions with tech support, I'm strongly considering switching to Sibelius, which I have found to be stabler, less buggy software. I need to hear your frank evaluations of Sibelius's capabilities when it comes to nitpicky score editing, advanced notation, &c. The few examples of detailed score editing I've given above are simply representative examples of the kinds of things I'm wondering about! Use your imagination—if it can be customized in Finale, I've fiddled with it, and want to know, in a broad sense, how significant Sibelius's limitations are, if any.

One last thing: I love troubleshooting bugs in Finale, and talking about the various ways we'd like MakeMusic to respond to our bug-fix wish-lists, but this isn't the thread for either topic. Let's keep it simple :-)

Thanks!
— Bram


Over the years, I have gained the deepest respect for the impact of great music. If Beethoven mirrors our humanity and desire for transcendence, then for some of us a day without Beethoven's message is a day when we are not fully human.

-- David Dubal

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Jeremy Levy
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Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 811
 
   Posted 9/14/2011 12:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just download Sibelius 7 and see for yourself. It does pretty much everything Finale does, just slightly different. It's not quite as easy to tweak symbols and custom shapes, but it can all be done.


Jeremy Levy
Trombonist, Orchestrator, Composer/Arranger, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

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cmbos
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 70
 
   Posted 9/14/2011 2:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In my experience, Sibelius can't compete to the powers of Finale.
Every single document I make in Sibelius ends up looking ok, documents made in Finale look exactly the way I want them to.
That's the difference.


Win 7- Finale 2011
Yamaha S90 ES

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Saffron
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Total Posts : 4504
 
   Posted 9/14/2011 3:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have also tweaked a fair few things in Finale, including my own piano brace, completely different set of fonts for expressions and the like, and staff sizes, spacing, and so on, so I now have a house style which feels just right for me.

But it's hasn't all been plain sailing. Firstly, with each and every upgrade I made to Finale, I had to make a decision: whether to import my old templates from the previous release, or to start over with the new templates, making all my house style changes by hand and risking getting some of them "wrong". I chose to import, so my current working Finale 2005b templates are actually 2004 templates, which themselves were 2003c templates, etc., right back to the first version of Finale 200x that I used.

And the trouble with this, is that new additions to the default templates (including, ironically, the newer, better default piano brace), bypassed me. I really wish this sort of thing could be stored in a readable, printable, independently editable ASCII file, rather then encoded into "libraries" that attach, irreversibly, to Finale .MUS (= .FTM) files.

Secondly, and this is my continuing bugbear with Finale, and why I won't upgrade further until such time as it is addressed, in order to get my piano scores playable, let alone "pretty", I have to spend an inordinate amount of time moving rests, notes, accidentals, etc., by hand, just to avoid collisions between layers. All the customisability of fonts, braces, barline thicknesses and so on is irrelevant when the music itself is a cludge of collided symbols that overlap each other!

Though I have not yet had time to download and play with Sibelius 7, my understanding is that it is a lot better (even if not "perfect") at solving my second issue with Finale; time will tell whether it addresses the first ...

Brian


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Motet
Isorhythmic



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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
 
   Posted 9/14/2011 11:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I have Sibelius 6 but have not played with it much. But the very first thing I tried, to see how Siblelius handles the horizontal placement of tuplet numbers, revealed that one is stuck with how Sibelius does it, whereas Finale allows more tweaking. (Here's that thread:

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=298254

). On the other hand, Sibelius's defaults are better than Finale's in some types of tuplets, and in fact Finale's placement could be described as "buggy" -- see the thread.

Probably most people are not going to tweak tuplets in this way, so Sibelius wins. On the other hand, for a "power user," as you describe yourself, perhaps this is indicative of less control in Sibelius than in Finale.

I don't think one can necessarily extrapolate from this one example, but it suggests the trade-off is that in Finale you can usually do exactly what you want--that's certainly been my experience--while Sibelius will give you something that looks reasonably good for less work (see "magnetic spacing") but with fewer options for customization. Sibelius's other strong point is that the user interface is easier to learn, but since you have already spent the time learning Finale, that shouldn't be much of an issue.


Finale 2011b, 2005b, TGTools
Windows XP

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Saffron
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Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 4504
 
   Posted 9/14/2011 12:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
I have Sibelius 6 but have not played with it much. But the very first thing I tried, to see how Siblelius handles the horizontal placement of tuplet numbers, revealed that one is stuck with how Sibelius does it, whereas Finale allows more tweaking. (Here's that thread:

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=298254

). On the other hand, Sibelius's defaults are better than Finale's in some types of tuplets, and in fact Finale's placement could be described as "buggy" -- see the thread.

Probably most people are not going to tweak tuplets in this way, so Sibelius wins. On the other hand, for a "power user," as you describe yourself, perhaps this is indicative of less control in Sibelius than in Finale.

I don't think one can necessarily extrapolate from this one example, but it suggests the trade-off is that in Finale you can usually do exactly what you want--that's certainly been my experience--while Sibelius will give you something that looks reasonably good for less work (see "magnetic spacing") but with fewer options for customization. Sibelius's other strong point is that the user interface is easier to learn, but since you have already spent the time learning Finale, that shouldn't be much of an issue.

One thing I noticed with earlier versions of Sibelius - its beaming is far better than Finale's ... in fact, if you run Patterson Beams with its default settings on a Finale file, the results end up the same as Sibelius out of the box!

Brian


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