|
|
| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > When music spacing totally fails | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Dissonance
Registered Member
      
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 642
| Posted 12/7/2015 5:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Sometimes Finale's music spacing totally fails (see attached). To fix this particular measure, I will put hidden rests in layer 3.
The beat spacing chart would be dandy if music spacing didn't undo it. In general, it would be great if you could update the layout on only part of a score. Another great feature would be if you could tighten or loosen the spacing over a selected range of measures. Or even better, if you could do the same over a partial measure.
| | Back to Top | |
|
Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 12/7/2015 5:06 PM (GMT -6) | | | |
|
Dissonance
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 642
| Posted 12/7/2015 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | | Yes, but not until this evening because I'm headed out the door for a Christmas party. | | Back to Top | |
|
Motet
Isorhythmic
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
| Posted 12/7/2015 5:21 PM (GMT -6) | | | |
|
Mike Rosen
himself
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
| Posted 12/7/2015 5:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Many of us (but obviously, not enough) have asked for a LEAVE THIS ALONE, DAMMIT setting, that could be applied and keep areas from reverting when other things are changed or updated.
In the meantime, you could try turning off Automatic Update Layout, and set Manual Positioning to "Incorporate." You can update layout selectively by selecting the measures, and Command-U. Unfortunately, you can't update "all measures but this one."
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html
Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker." | | Back to Top | |
|
Mike Rosen
himself
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
| Posted 12/7/2015 9:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Motet,
I have Automatic Spacing and Update layout on, when I am entering in scroll view. When I go to page view, I will generally enter my first line of lyrics with click assign, and let it space. As you say, Finale generally does this pretty well. Then, I turn it off, while I enter additional lyrics, and make needed spacing adjustments. If the extra lyrics are crunched in a spot, I will apply spacing and update to that measure or system, only.
Keep in mind that most of my work is two or four staff choral music.
Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com
Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html
Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker." | | Back to Top | |
|
Charles Lawrence
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638
| Posted 12/7/2015 10:22 PM (GMT -6) | | | What is so "totally failed" about this spacing? All I did was hide the three rests on the second line, and adjust the before and after clef spacing to 48 EVPUs. You could possibly tweak the accidentals on the second line, but it's not really needed, IMHO.
Sorry about the size.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)
32 GB RAM
Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram
512 GB SSD system disk
Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030
GPO4.02
Cakewalk SONAR X3
"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell
Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/8/2015 7:28:22 AM (GMT-6)
Image Attachment :
FailedSpacing.png 96KB (image/x-png)This image has been viewed 1035 time(s). | | | |
| | Back to Top | |
|
Charles Lawrence
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638
| Posted 12/8/2015 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | In my experiment, I just entered the notes as shown. The only adjustment needed was Document Options->Clefs->Spacing->Before and After set to 48 EVPUs. No fiddling with beat charts or any other such thing. AMS was turned on.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)
32 GB RAM
Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram
512 GB SSD system disk
Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030
GPO4.02
Cakewalk SONAR X3
"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell
Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/8/2015 7:37:18 AM (GMT-6)
File Attachment :
FailedSpacing.musx 84KB (application/octet-stream)This file has been downloaded 310 time(s). | | Back to Top | |
|
Charles Lawrence
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638
| Posted 12/8/2015 10:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Upon closer examination, Vaughan, you are right. I was putting the Eb-Gb in the 2nd layer triplet, not in the 1st layer. Even so, with that modification added, all it took to clean it up was a slight tweak with the Note Position Tool and the Accidental Mover Tool.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)
32 GB RAM
Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram
512 GB SSD system disk
Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030
GPO4.02
Cakewalk SONAR X3
"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell
| | Back to Top | |
|
Dissonance
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 642
| Posted 12/8/2015 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | I was merely pointing out a Finale deficiency, and not looking to fix my score (since I know how to fix it), but since you asked, here's the culprit measure. It would be nice if it just worked a little better. I think in this particular situation, accuracy suffers for automatism.
Yes, spacing is more of a problem than update, but a score quickly becomes unintelligible without spacing. I usually keep the manual positioning set to clear, until I get to the final draft of my scores.
Flint, my solution was the same as yours (inserting hidden rests).
Motet, your solution to move the lower rest works well in tight spacing.
Charles, I'm not certain why the clef spacing would affect this. In the document options, my units are in inches and not evpus.
Jari, both staffs were selected when I applied spacing. The spacing issue takes care of itself by moving measures to the next system, but then the score is not tight enough.
Octo, I usually keep all the avoid collisions of selected.
Mike, I would like to have a leave-it-alone setting too.
Thanks everyone! | | Back to Top | |
|
Charles Lawrence
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638
| Posted 12/8/2015 9:15 PM (GMT -6) | | You are right Motet. The lower note is an Eb not a Gb. I must have been on drugs, wait, yes I was drugged up with Nyquil for a bad head cold, and was just about to go to bed. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it. Sorry. I started all over from scratch, and hopefully now I have the notes entered as shown. The Note Position Tool handled all adjustments I needed to get the attached file. It survives a re-spacing operation.
Dissonance,
After entering the notes, even if some were incorrect, and after changing the clef to bass in that measure, I would have sworn I did a music re-spacing even when AMS was on, but the courtesy clef still collided with the previous notes. That is why I set the before/after spacing. It seemed to help. Maybe it was an illusion, because now when I do it without changing the clef spacing from the default, all appears OK. BTW, you can change between units with the dropdown in the Document Options window. Sometimes integer EVPUs are easier to comprehend than fractional inches.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)
32 GB RAM
Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram
512 GB SSD system disk
Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030
GPO4.02
Cakewalk SONAR X3
"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell
Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/8/2015 8:21:48 PM (GMT-6)
File Attachment :
FailedSpacing_Revised.musx 85KB (application/octet-stream)This file has been downloaded 290 time(s). | | Back to Top | |
|
Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 12/9/2015 2:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Unfortunately, the notes in the staves don't line up, which is not the way to go. So, back to square 1.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
|
Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 12/9/2015 9:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Indeed! Sorry, Charles, but you can't move the triplet in the LH so it no longer coincides with that of the RH, just to avoid a collision with the clef change. I've actually never had a clef change collide with the notes around it. If anything, I often find that Finale allows to much space for a clef change and I change this with TGTools' Add/Remove Space in Measure. Unfortunately, that plugin no longer works properly. In any case, not trying to put too many measures onto one system helps. Dissonance's example shows a much tighter measure spacing (not spacing algorithm).
@Motet: I don't really like moving the lower E-flat's accidental away from its note, especially since it's one of two E-flats an octave apart and played by the same hand. I'd prefer to move the notes so that there's enough room for the lower accidental.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 2014.5, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.11.1
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB
Amsterdam | | Back to Top | |
|
Charles Lawrence
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638
| Posted 12/9/2015 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks to all you engraving experts for setting me straight. I have learned a lot with this experiment. As I've stated, I'm no expert, just a hobbyist, and certainly no keyboardist. I now have come to the conclusion that putting hidden eighth note rests in an unused layer, in both staves, is the best way to space this measure. This idea was, of course, proposed by Dissonance in his original post, and later by Flint. By doing so, Finale spaces the notes acceptably IMHO, where every thing lines up both vertically and horizontally, as I have come to know, it should. So, in that respect, given that it should not be necessary if every thing worked properly, adding the hidden rests in a different layer, if there is one available, ratchets the spacing from "totally failing", to being almost perfect. I did find, however, that applying Jari's JW Note Spacing plug-in with the Golden Ratio Scaling improves the aesthetics somewhat, at least to my eye.
[UPDATE] Actually "Medium Allotment" looks better. It opens up the 32nd notes more so the accidentals don't collide with the ledger lines as they do a little in the above image.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5930K CPU with 6 dual core processors @ 3.50 GHz (12 threads)
32 GB RAM
Realtek High Definition on board audio
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 GPU with 4GB ram
512 GB SSD system disk
Four 4TB and one 1TB internal SATA HD's
Microsoft Windows 8.1 Professional with Media Center x64 Edition, (06.03.9600.00)
Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030
GPO4.02
Cakewalk SONAR X3
"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell
Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/9/2015 10:00:35 AM (GMT-6)
File Attachment :
FailedSpacing_RevisedAgain.musx 85KB (application/octet-stream)This file has been downloaded 296 time(s). | | Back to Top | |
|
Dissonance
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 642
| Posted 12/9/2015 12:22 PM (GMT -6) | | | This has been a fun conversation. Thank you all so much! | | Back to Top | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 6:33 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2023 |
|
|